Why are tattoos permanent?
Hey. I'm Melissa. I'm Jam. And I'm a chemist.
Jam:And I'm not.
Melissa:And welcome to chemistry for your life.
Jam:The podcast help you understand the chemistry of your everyday life. And if it's 21st time listening to us, Melissa here really is a chemist. She That's right. Has a PhD.
Melissa:Wow.
Jam:And she really knows what she's talking about. And I very much am not a chemist, and I don't know. And I'm learning live, sort of live or whatever. You ever listened to a recording? But You
Melissa:think they know how podcasts work, Jam. Know how
Jam:to work. I'm learning at the same time you you guys are, and I'm not an expert.
Melissa:That's right. And I also have a master's degree in organic chemistry specifically.
Jam:Yes. And you have a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
Melissa:That's true.
Jam:We're just kinda going Backward.
Melissa:Back all the way through all the things I have. I forgot about the bachelor's degree. Now that I have the 2 other ones. Yeah.
Jam:They're kind of a Given, I guess. If you say you have a PhD or
Melissa:master A lot of people don't have, masters that have a PhD.
Jam:Right. That's true. That's true. I meant bachelor's. Like, that's one You normally don't have to ever say
Melissa:But part of what I like to specify is my master's is organic chemistry, but my PhD is actually chemistry education research. So it's a little different. Had to show expertise in, traditional area of chemistry any way to get that one, but it kind of is a little different. So I'll I like to claim that as my Traditional chemistry area too.
Jam:That makes total sense. Let me ask you this, Melissa. If I started going around Saying things like, when I was working on my bachelor's, I blah blah blah blah. Do you think me saying it that way makes it sound like Like, I have additional degrees even though I didn't say it. It's like sort of one of those it's like a misrepresentation, but but in a Very sneaky, not actually lying way.
Melissa:It you could say when I was in undergrad. I think that would sound better.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:Because being an undergrad assumes that you've been grad also.
Jam:Okay. Because a
Melissa:lot of people say when I was in college and I was working my bachelor's, but not very many people say when I was an undergrad if they've Not also been in grad.
Jam:Okay. Noted. I'm not gonna say if I'm going to use that, but I might.
Melissa:Sneaky. It's a sneaky way
Jam:I'm just kidding.
Melissa:Of misleading the public.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:No. We don't believe in misinformation or misleading the public here.
Jam:I do believe in messing with the public a little bit for fun, not for self gain.
Melissa:But only in a way that makes it obvious that you're doing so after the fact.
Jam:Yeah. I like to be silly and I'm but not to to trick anyone, in a, malicious way.
Melissa:If our listeners want to stay tuned after the episode, I will tell a fun story of a time Jam tricked me hardcore by creating a fake coffee shop that I didn't know was fake, and I'll tell you about it after the fact.
Jam:Oh, okay.
Melissa:Okay. Alright. So now that we've had a quite a little detour here on our introduction, today's episode is all about tattoos. And this is inspired by listener Kate. When I put out the call for q and r questions, Kate asked how tattoo removal work.
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:And when Kate asked that, I suddenly realized that I didn't actually know how tattoo Not removal worked. How getting tattoos in the 1st place even worked.
Jam:Application. How tattoo I don't know.
Melissa:How Tattoo installation? When you get them installation. Yeah.
Jam:When you get them installed. Right. Right. Right.
Melissa:Yeah. I didn't know how tattoo installation work.
Jam:I don't either. We I have a tattoo. You have a tattoo.
Melissa:I have multiple tattoos. Yeah.
Jam:I have 2, technically. One's very small. But, and I witnessed it. Yeah. You know?
Jam:I was there.
Melissa:Too. Yeah.
Jam:But I don't know how it works.
Melissa:Me neither. And then I thought I gotta learn. So that's what I did today. It is a little bit more biology than chemistry, but there is chemistry also involved, of course. There were a lot of good ones that were not in peer reviewed sources, but they gave really good information.
Melissa:So I always like to state when I got it from something outside of a peer reviewed article. So the chemistry and engineering news Our, magazine, which goes with the Journal of the American Chemical Society, that had a good article in it. Someone who has a bachelor's degree in science and a master's degree in science reporting, Rachel Feldman, actually wrote a few articles about this as well that were really, really good. So that's a lot of where I got my sources from, and I always like to say it up front if it's not fully in the peer reviewed journal articles. But the peer reviewed Journal articles did reinforce what those articles had said as well.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:And those are good trustworthy sources in my opinion, or I wouldn't use them. Yeah. Okay. So tattoo ink Okay. Is chemistry.
Melissa:Okay. Tattoo ink is essentially pigments, which would be either salts of heavy heavy metals that are highly colored Or organic pigments like the highly colored molecules that we've talked about before that are in a solid state, And they are suspended in liquid. Okay. Now a suspension is different than being dissolved in liquid. Can you think about maybe what the difference might be?
Melissa:We've talked about suspensions before.
Jam:Yeah. We have. Very familiar to me. Let me think.
Melissa:I think it was on the cornstarch episode. Why does cornstarch do that thing?
Jam:Oh, yeah. Okay. Here's just a shot in the dark. Would maybe we know that, like, when something dissolves into something else that it the molecules of that thing stay intact
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:But they spread out Even it's like you have these grains of salt for instance. It dissolve into it, but the molecules are able to, like, disperse. And it's not like there's a grain that's floating in the water anymore. It's lots of molecules of salts that get dispersed throughout. When a suspension be, It stays in the state that it's in in the form it's in, but just hangs out in a new, like, a new liquid or something like that.
Melissa:Yes. And I'm so proud of you because before I've asked you what you think happens in something being dissolved in you, Didn't know that it the molecules get surrounded by solvent. I think you thought maybe it melted or something?
Jam:Yeah. I don't know what I thought. I think it became the most clear to me probably in Our coffee episodes. That's where we talked about that the most.
Melissa:Yeah. Yeah. So if it is salt or something that can break up into ions, it will usually have the, one positive and one negative. They'll separate out, and they'll be Surrounded by water each.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:Or I think, like, in sugar, the individual molecules will go into the solution and be surrounded by it.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:That's my understanding. So but you're correct. In a suspension, the solid is still intact. There's groups of molecules together still in their solid form. And the way you can kind of tell them apart is typically in a solution where the solid has actually been dissolved, It is it lasts for a long time.
Melissa:Uh-huh. As long as there's enough liquid to keep it dissolved in, it doesn't come back out of solution very easily.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And it's usually somewhat translucent where you could see through it.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:Whereas the suspension is usually more opaque. And if the solid is more dense over time, it'll settle down to the bottom or even as the particles start to come into contact with other Solids in the solution, as the particles start to come into contact with other solids in the suspension, The solid particles can get larger and larger.
Jam:Oh, okay. Interesting.
Melissa:So that's the biggest difference between them is that there is literally still solid suspended in the liquid. And then the other one, it dissolves in the liquid. It's no longer sort of in its solid state. It has been solvated or surrounded by solvent molecules.
Jam:Okay. Got it.
Melissa:So for ink in tattooing, it is a suspension, not a solvent, Not a solution. So, usually, these solid pigments are in some kind of carrier liquid, And that could be a number of things or a mixture of things, water, alcohol. There's a few others, but anything that effectively distributes the pigment. And sometimes you buy it already in the suspension or the tattoo artists do, and some tattoo artists will actually mix their own.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:They'll buy the solid pigment and mix it in. Dang. Now here's something that's crazy. Really 2 things that are crazy.
Jam:Okay. I love things that are crazy.
Melissa:1, as of reading an article in chemistry and engineering news in 2016, teen. And then I went and checked the FDA's website today, and it seems like this is still true. The FDA doesn't regulate pigments In tattooing. Which is wild to me because they regulate pigments in cosmetics. And tattoos are permanent, and cosmetics are not.
Jam:Right. That's interesting.
Melissa:I know, especially if some of the pigments are organic molecules, which can be carcinogenic, and some of the pigments are The solid or the salts of heavy metals, both of those are not incredibly safe inherently.
Jam:Yeah. Is there some other, like, regulatory entity that has some influence, or does it just
Melissa:Not that I could find.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:And one article from Chemistry and Engineering News even stated that sometimes they'll use leftover pigments from, like, car auto paint and stuff.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:I know. So be really careful if you're planning on getting a tattoo about asking your artist about where they get their pigments and if it's regulated by any entity or if they know what kind of pigments are present. Because especially if you have a known allergy to some heavy metals or something, You could be negatively affected by that ink being in your skin.
Jam:That's so crazy. And also, like, when we talked in the past about The FDA not regulating, scents and aromas for stuff.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:It's like that's interesting because you think it is something that is Some parts of something are entering our body.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:So shouldn't it? Like Shouldn't it? Shouldn't both those things?
Melissa:Yeah. Yeah. But, also, when I was on their website, it was basically like, there's just higher priority for us to regulate other things, and I guess they don't have the capacity to do all of it.
Jam:Right. And tattoos are completely optional. Like Right.
Melissa:Do you
Jam:hear that?
Melissa:But so are cosmetics for the most part. Yeah.
Jam:That's true. That's true.
Melissa:Unless there's, You know, a professional reason, like, if you're on TV or something like that. But
Jam:Right. But
Melissa:even that, I think, is kind of optional.
Jam:Or maybe it's more, like, realistically, like Like, this number of people use cosmetics.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:This number of people are getting tattoos.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:So the average person is gonna use them, so let's at least regulate that. The average person doesn't necessarily
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Have tattoos as much as they use cosmetics.
Melissa:There's actually a retired cosmetic chemist who wrote in after reading the article that that the FDA doesn't regulate it, and they talked about how shocked they were. Wow. That that was true. Yeah. They're like, the FDA is all up in our business.
Melissa:They didn't say it like that. Yeah. That made me laugh. So tattoo ink is Some kind of pigment suspended in some kind of carrier liquid.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And it's not regulated by the FDA, so that's really interesting. But, clearly, a lot of people safely get tattoos. So for the most part, it's fine and safe. The worst thing is allergic reactions, And there is not really evidence of heavy metal toxicity or anything incredibly dangerous that's resulted from tattoos that we have right now.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:But it is something to be aware of, and I will probably, before I get my next 2 tattoo, ask them about where they source their pigments from now that I know so that I can do a little re research
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:So that's the ink.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And this also surprised me. I know they use needles to put the ink inside you. Uh-huh. So I guess I assumed that they dipped A needle an individual needle in ink, and then that sort of injected the ink into your skin.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:But, actually, it's a little bit more like A paintbrush where I like this analogy. This was from Rachel Feldman. Uh-huh. Where you dip the Several needles in at once, and the ink actually exists between the needles. It hangs out between them.
Melissa:Yeah. And then when it goes into your Skin either due to capillary action, really most likely from the intermolecular forces between the Carrier a liquid and your the cells inside your body, the ink stays behind.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:So it's almost like you're cleaning off your paintbrush in the skin. Yeah. The needles are your paintbrush, and and you're using your skin as a cloth to sort of wipe them clean.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. I knew it was a bunch of needles only because at some point, Some YouTube or like, the algorithm showed me that way, way zoomed in slow mo Mhmm. Videos that didn't explain things, but it just was like, Check out how cool this looks.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And I was like, woah. That's a bunch of needles. Like
Melissa:I knew it was a bunch of needles too. I just assumed every single one of them had Yeah. Sucked up Yeah. Tattoo ink, I guess, almost like needles on a sewing machine.
Jam:Yeah. But it looked like now that you said it looked a lot like a paintbrush, because it did look like there was just tons of ink.
Melissa:Yeah. Up
Jam:in there and kinda between and all that stuff.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And it just looked a lot more like, oh, it's not like it's injecting ink in the way that we think a syringe would or whatever.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Like, it's kinda just
Melissa:Squishing it in.
Jam:Squishing it in. Yeah. Yeah. So strange.
Melissa:It is strange. But what's very cool about this is the needles are puncturing the skin, so they literally are wounding you, And pigment is left behind inside your wound.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So then when you get a wound, Your immune system response.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:So cells called macrophages are part of your immune system, and their job is They reminded me of a guard of the immune system. 1 article that I read said, they, quote, since and respond to tissue invasion. So that reminded me of, like, in light of the rings where there's, like, the guys up on the top looking out, and they're waiting for something to happen and then they let other people know, and then, you know, they go try to take care of it. It kinda felt like that.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So that's what macrophages do. They're These sentinels, their guards, they look out for some kind of invasion into the tissue, and then they'll respond to it. Okay. So when your skin is punctured by this needle with the pigment on it, the macrophages recognize that as an invasion, and they rush over to where that is, and they try to break down any invader in your body.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But these pigments are too big because they're not liquid. They're not dissolved. They're not individual they're solid in crystalline form for the most part, so the macrophages can't break them down.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So what the macrophages do instead is they contain the issue, and they slate the invaders to stay where they are. They're not allowed to leave. They can't be broken down, And that's why tattoos stay where we put them.
Jam:Interesting. It's not it's why, like, it doesn't just, like, kinda go away Right. Over time, we're like
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:Kind of bleed into our bodies and then disappear or something like that. That's crazy.
Melissa:One of the articles, I think it was by Rachel Feldman, said, You are duping your immune system into giving you this tattoo. Yeah.
Jam:Yeah. And
Melissa:just helping
Jam:it be permanent.
Melissa:You're taking advantage of your immune system and forcing it To keep your ink where you put it.
Jam:That is so interesting.
Melissa:So, yes, these macrophages can't break down the pigments. So they just keep them where they are. The tattoo ink stays right there where it's put, and your skin heals, and it's almost as if the macrophages Keep it suspended in that, I think it's the dermis layer of your skin, and they can't go anywhere. And they also aren't gonna be broken down. So it's almost as if they could just get frozen in time, like a little wound time capsule.
Melissa:Dang.
Jam:That is crazy.
Melissa:Isn't that so cool? Yeah. So and I did read that there's a little bit of uncertainty. Like, it's possible that the macrophages just stay there, that they have a significant amount of longevity, but one research group seemed to find evidence in mice that the macrophages were actually being regenerated and that the ink could be continually, released and Recaptured over and over by the macrophages as the macrophages were renewed. So it could be that the ink is held in place by new macrophages coming along, or it could be long term macrophages holding it in place.
Melissa:There's some Lack of clarity with that, and then they also said that there's some pigments also stored in cells called fibroblasts. But They're not very 100% clear, but the main idea is that your immune system is containing the threat that you put into it on purpose, And, therefore, your tattoos stay in the same place.
Jam:Wow. Dang.
Melissa:Isn't that so cool?
Jam:Yeah. That's crazy.
Melissa:And that's the chemistry of tattoo ink plus a little bit of the biology.
Jam:And it's, like, crazy because then it's like it is healing that area Mhmm. And all the, You know, wounds you just created Mhmm. With the needles, which is great. Obviously, that's what we want, but leaving the ink. That's crazy.
Melissa:It it amazes me how good at its job the human body is.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Like, if other things just healed themselves when we broke them, we would be so impressed. If my screen cracked and then it just fixed itself Yeah. That would be amazing, but our skin does that. Yeah. And just to make sure that this weird invader that you're putting into your body, this ink, just to make sure it doesn't go somewhere else and cause some trouble, Your immune system is like, nope.
Melissa:You're staying right here.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And it does that forever.
Jam:Yeah. That's crazy.
Melissa:It's crazy. Dang. There is a little bit of evidence, however, that some ink might be traveling to your lymph nodes, which that kinda makes sense to me also Because your immune system is what's keeping the ink in place. So perhaps it's traveling through your immune system to your lymph nodes, which are also part of your immune system. But I don't know I couldn't tell if that was for a lot of different cases or if it was just for certain individuals or what?
Melissa:I couldn't find good evidence on that. So we can revisit it next week When we talk about actually, in 2 weeks for our listeners, next week for me and Jam, when we talk about how tattoos get removed.
Jam:Nice. We're doing a 2 parter. I love it.
Melissa:Doing a 2 parter. We're doing a cliffhanger. A quick little shorty to talk about how tattoos get installed. And then next week, We're gonna or 2 weeks from now for our listeners. We're gonna talk about how tattoos get broken down, and Kate will finally get her answer after all this time.
Jam:Looks sort of installed is kind of the terminology we're using for Yeah. When they're with 5. But then demolish is gonna be the
Melissa:Oh, demolish. That's scary.
Jam:The technical word for Lasered.
Melissa:Yeah. Yeah. And you can now that you know the mechanism by which tattoos get put into your body, you can spend this whole next week thinking about, or 2 weeks depending on who you are thinking about how might they get taken out. Yeah. Interesting.
Melissa:Those lasers do? And also ask yourself, What even is a laser?
Jam:Yep. Wow.
Melissa:Those are some questions I'm gonna leave you to ponder. But for right now, what I want you to do is explain the chemistry back to me.
Jam:Okay. So the the thing that came to my mind, It's not really like a visually pleasing one that, like, feels like, oh, that's like a different thing that looks like a tattoo in a different part of our life. But on the kind of body response, immune system, whatever, all that stuff thing. So in every house that we've lived in and probably, like, lots of people in Texas and other warm climates or whatever. We have had a lot of little geckos that live, in Different parts of our house, basically.
Melissa:And if you wanna know how geckos walk on walls Nice. There is an episode.
Jam:Yeah. It's It's, like, an early one too. It was, like Yeah. Probably in our fur within our 1st 20 ish.
Melissa:There's a little spoiler alert. It has to do with intermolecular forces.
Jam:Yeah. So always had them. But the 1st house we lived in, they were kinda everywhere. At one point, I changed out a A smoke detector that was needing to be replaced. Mhmm.
Jam:I took it off. Like, it's they were that guy was in our attic. And so A lot of gecko y related stuff came fell down.
Melissa:Oh, dang.
Jam:Yeah. So I I thought, like, oh, man. This these must these guys must be doing all kinds of stuff up in our attic.
Melissa:Right. Probably
Jam:not good. So I talked to an exterminator, and we haven't come to spray for just insects and stuff like that anyway. And he basically explained to me that geckos don't cause really any problems.
Melissa:Interesting. See.
Jam:They really aren't worth trying to get rid of.
Melissa:Okay.
Jam:In fact, they actually do some things that help. Like, they eat insects and stuff. But He was like, they really don't cause any structural damage. They're, like, they're not gonna chew on stuff. They're not gonna chew through water.
Melissa:Stain stuff? Because we have geckos in our garage, and I'm afraid they're gonna, like, stain papers and stuff.
Jam:That's a great question. I don't think so, but I don't know. He didn't Interesting. Say it specifically. He said, basically, compared to every other thing you might try to exterminate, they are so, so harmless.
Jam:And in our and and all of our houses, they've always had a place where they is their spot. It's usually, like, Somewhere around an entryway or porch.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:At our current house, if I was to go take off the, like, porch sconces that we have on either side of our house, There would be 3 in each one easily. So they basically stay in the same places and stuff. So kind of like these These solids of ink that end up getting put under our skin
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:It's not worth trying to figure out how to get rid of it. Nope. Our body is like, I don't know about this. Let's just leave where it is. Let's not mess with it.
Jam:But in that to take that further, our body actually helps it stay exactly where it is.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:By The I forget the name of that thing.
Melissa:The Macrophages.
Jam:The macrophages.
Melissa:They're cells that come as part of your immune system.
Jam:They come and keep Those particles of ink, the pigment solids where they are on purpose. It's like 1 step further. It's almost like as if I went and got all the geckos and, like, wherever they were and, like, put some sort of habitat for them to be like, hey. Here, guys. You while you guys stay here, here's everything you need.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:Here's a little box, and here's some food and water and whatever else.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And just stay right there where you're at.
Melissa:The other thing I thought of while you were talking was, I guess because you talked about your attic is when there's water damage in your house and it leaves a stain.
Jam:Oh, yeah.
Melissa:But you're not really worried about The water damage itself, the color, the discoloration that it leaves, the thing you're most worried about is making sure that it there's no leak.
Jam:Oh, yeah. That's a great one.
Melissa:Sort of like the immune system comes and make sure that well, there's nothing really going on here, so we'll just Contain it. So, you know, it's like the guy comes into your attic, and he's like, I'm fixing this pipe, so it's not leaking anymore. We're containing it.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. But
Melissa:there's still a mark of color left behind where that happened.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
Melissa:I also thought of this game that I play called spirit island.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:Really, I don't play it. My husband and my brother play it, and they'll play it until all hours of the night. But it's a game where I think it is inspired by indigenous culture, but it's a game where you are literally playing as the spirit of the island. Island, and there are invaders that are coming to try to colonize the island. Uh-huh.
Melissa:And so you, as the spirit of the island there's several different spirits of the island, but you're trying to make it to where they can't take over. And some aspect of the game, some aspect of the strategy is about Containment. Yeah. Like, you can stay here Yeah. And you might hurt the spirits of the island a little bit, but you won't hurt them enough That it's worth it for us to kill you off Yeah.
Melissa:At this time.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And if you if you start to do more damage, then we'd worry about it. But for right now, let's just contain this Threat.
Jam:Yes. Yes.
Melissa:And it reminded me so much of that, but it's not a widespread game. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, this is the perfect analogy for this. But
Jam:There's, like, 2 people who are like, yes. I see that grandpa too. Perfect. You know?
Melissa:Well, that's what I thought, but I will say I posted about playing it on Twitter for our anniversary. I told my husband Play that game with him. And a bunch of my friends were like, we love that game. Down with the colonizers. This the island will win.
Melissa:Like That
Jam:is interesting.
Melissa:So maybe it's more widespread than I think. Yeah. But that was the 1st thing I thought of when I was doing this analogy was
Jam:That of
Melissa:that game.
Jam:It's so funny. I mean, you might be right. I'm so so out of the loop on all things games.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:That, like, I've you've mentioned that one before, and but I've never heard of it anywhere else.
Melissa:Yeah. Well, I hadn't either until my Twitter friends Yeah. About it. Yeah. So shout out Miriam and Paulette.
Melissa:They they were the 2 I remember being the most enthusiastic about it.
Jam:That's funny.
Melissa:Yeah. So I really that's a good that was a good analogy, but I was like, man, there are so few people that will truly appreciate the beauty of that analogy.
Jam:So some things that didn't that don't factor into that that I probably should recap to make sure I understand them Mhmm. Is I guess I sort of already explained suspension a little bit, but it's Yeah. Solids are still intact. They are surrounded by kinda floating in some sort of other thing.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:But they are not, like, changed by it and not like they get to stay together. They're the group of molecules, the way they're arranged, These pigments in a sort of crystal wise form get to stay exactly in that, and it just kind of helps deliver, I guess those pigments into our skin.
Melissa:The liquid delivers the pigments into our skin, but I think them not being actually dissolved in the solution is part of why the macrophages can't The macrophages can't break them down.
Jam:Right. It's a benefit. Got it.
Melissa:Yes. I think it it's possible if it was more thoroughly, surrounded by solvent molecules more thoroughly, and totally dissolved, it and we injected liquid Color into our skin, for example, I think it would be more easy to break down. But I think the size of the particles is Part of why it can't be broken down.
Jam:Got
Melissa:it. To the fact that it's still in its solid state, I think, is key to the permanence of the molecule. So that's really a big chemistry piece right there is this idea that we're taking a solid and putting the solid in our Again, and that solid is not easily broken down by macrophages because probably of all the intermolecular forces, but also the size Eyes of the particles themselves.
Jam:Got it. Got it. And so that's important part that wasn't part of the analogy. What else?
Melissa:I think that's you mostly covered it. We did you didn't talk about what the pigments were actually made of.
Jam:Oh, yeah.
Melissa:Which those are Either the salts of heavy metals, usually those are pretty highly colored, but heavy metals can there can be heavy metal poisoning. So you try I I think they've tried to move away from those. Okay. And that more often inks now are organic dyes. Okay.
Jam:There are still some it's organic, but it still has all the right parameters to it. It's a large solid Modular pigment. It's from some other source. It's not heavy metals.
Melissa:Right. Yeah. Just sort of like what we talked about with nail polish. There were pigments that were colorful that were suspended in those. They're not all they're not metal salts or heavy metal salts.
Melissa:They're usually organic. Most pigments that I think of are organic pigments because I worked in a lab. It was an organic synthesis lab, and we made large molecules that were highly conjugated, so They absorbed color in just the right range to be very colorful molecules.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:So I've actually wanted this is kind of ironic, but get a tattoo that is of one of those highly colored molecules I made Uh-huh. With The watercolor background in the teal color that it actually looks like when
Jam:it's dissolved. Nice. That's cool.
Melissa:So there That that's what I think of when I think of pigments as organic molecules. I was surprised when I found out the heavy metal salts were a part of it.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So here's a fun fact to reward you for that excellent explanation.
Jam:Okay. I'll take it.
Melissa:An interesting thing that I learned while I was researching this is that Tattoos are actually an ancient practice. I knew that to some degree because I knew a lot of indigenous cultures use tattoos to, have, like, tribal markings and things like that. But, also, I found out that the 1st ever tattoo documented on mummified skin was in 3 3,300 BC.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:That's so long ago.
Jam:Dang.
Melissa:Also, there's some cultures Today, some indigenous cultures that will still use tattoos to as a medicinal practice Mhmm. Over acupuncture sites to treat Arthritis.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:I know. I don't know the efficacy of that practice, but I always love learning about Instances where science is used before it was even called science or could be categorized in science before we knew how or why something worked That we we as a culture, as human beings figured out
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:How to implement those practices. And then later, science came around. It was like, oh, yeah. This is how that works.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:I think that's always really beautiful.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:You know? I think it gives credence to the idea that Scientific knowing isn't the only way of knowing. Yeah. So that was pretty beautiful. I was like, wow.
Melissa:That's so cool.
Jam:That's awesome.
Melissa:So that's it. That's the chemistry of tattoos. That was a really fun one. I liked that a lot.
Jam:Yeah. Me too.
Melissa:Is there any fun things that have happened in your life In addition to the fun ness of this episode this week?
Jam:I do have something sort of fun and sort of Also frustrating, basically, sort of.
Melissa:That's funny.
Jam:That you already know about. But, basically, you know so we have been For ever since we moved in the house that we currently live in Mhmm. We knew from day 1, just at least style wise, there are things we didn't love about the kitchen. But
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:That's common. You know, move somewhere.
Melissa:There were some pretty questionable fan lamp light Yes. Things. What are those called?
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Fixtures that were not
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:Your style for sure. Yes.
Jam:In style, that happens. So that's, like, pretty normal one time we move into a house, and you slowly make it your own style. But what what really got us was how many bad functional choices were made.
Melissa:Oh, yeah.
Jam:Though in the previous time that this kitchen was redone?
Melissa:Yes. We have cooked in your kitchen one time, and there is not a lot of counter
Jam:Space. Yeah. That's the biggest downside. A couple other things that are somewhat like, there's also not a lot of storage at all.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:They the way they did it Really minimize the amount towards it could be possible in that amount of space.
Melissa:And, also, they everything wasn't even. Yeah. Things would stick out in an unsatisfying way in weird places.
Jam:Totally. So that's bugged us a lot.
Melissa:Let's keep talking about how much we hate the thing that you spent a Ton of money on. Yeah. Yeah. I did.
Jam:Yes. But here is what is nice that we are redoing it, Finally. Yay. And we went for it. 1, we felt like we had definitely enough data about how annoying the kitchen was after a year and a half.
Jam:Yeah. But also it was like, we're about to have another kid, so getting this done before that would be really great And not having, like, some loud machinery when there's, like, a, you know, newborn or infant trying to sleep.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And when there's just 2 kids in general instead of 1.
Melissa:Yeah. And you need more counter space when you have more people to feed.
Jam:Yep. Exactly. More counter space. And we it was already not meeting The needs we had
Melissa:were just 3
Jam:3 people living here. Like, then thinking about 4. So
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:We moved forward with that. And but the huge downside, it's just been so annoying. Yeah. Not having a kitchen, having people in and out of your house, having loud sounds, mess, dust everywhere. And, like, I kinda knew that stuff was going to be the case, and it sounds like a weird thing to complain about when it's like, well, you're getting a new kitchen.
Melissa:But Yeah. You're getting a new kitchen. It's gonna cute, but it's rough.
Jam:And the delayed gratification is so immense. It's like Yes. Not only do you have to wait some time, but also you have to go through a really annoying 3 or 4 weeks of time
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:Before you get any of the benefits?
Melissa:And just to underline how annoying it is. Like, there's not a sink. Mm-mm. So the their family can't do dishes. Yeah.
Melissa:And if they do need to do dishes, it's not like you can use the bathroom sink to Clean off all that food because there's not a disposal, so the bathroom sink can't really handle that. Yeah. And so you have to be very careful about that. So you could just use all Disposable things is not great for the environment, and you still can't really cook if you don't have the ability to consistently clean dishes. There's just all these little things Yep.
Melissa:That you don't think about until you're standing in a kitchen that doesn't have a sink or a stove or Anything other than a microwave, basically.
Jam:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. So And not having a surface tote and doing that, Sivan, to prep food.
Melissa:The kitchen table has become their whole kitchen.
Jam:Yeah. So it's been frustrating, and, I'm ready for it to go over.
Melissa:Yeah. But it is looking pretty are ready.
Jam:Yes. We're finally seeing some fruit of the all the frustration. But
Melissa:Speaking of pigments.
Jam:Oh, yeah. That's true. Yeah. The thing that was new when most came over today is that, the cabinets have been painted now, which they were not last time you were here.
Melissa:Right. They weren't even there last time I was here. It was just the shell of the cabinets.
Jam:Yeah. That's right. Anyway, that's kind of the the only thing I think to share out because it's been such a big effect on my life.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:5
Melissa:week 1. Yeah. I love teaching. It's 5 week 1. Yeah.
Melissa:I love teaching. I do love teaching, but it was right after I graduated, I took this on as a way to make a little income so that I could take a break before I start my job in the fall.
Jam:Totally.
Melissa:And I thought it would be a relatively low time commitment because it's only teaching a few hours a day, and I already had all my materials ready.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And I mistakenly assumed I would also have a teaching assistant. Ah. And, also, I mistakenly assumed that I still liked materials I used last fall. Ah. And so it has been a much larger time commitment and a much larger inconvenience that I planned also because I was so ready to be out of working all the time, though, that I also have planned hanging out with people and spending time with people.
Melissa:And so I'm I feel very Spread thinner than I thought I would. Yeah. But I was not willing to give up the standards that I have set for myself and to not practice things I learned about in my research, so I just sucked it up and dealt with it.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And I'm starting to see, like you said, the fruit of that because my students are starting to reach out to me, and they've been saying really kind Things were really just thanking me for the work that I put in this semester and making Ochem accessible to them. And a lot of them have taken it before, and they were really scared to take it again. Mhmm. And so they've said really kind things, and so I'm in that payoff phase of Nice. Man, this was really hard for 5 weeks, Anna, I've been really tired, and I definitely thought that I bit off more than I had anticipated many times.
Melissa:Yeah. But I'm so glad that I kept pushing through and kept putting the work in because I'm getting to see my students feel that they understand organic chemistry well, and I'm really proud that.
Jam:Nice. Nice.
Melissa:So that's been really special, and they've been so kind to, like, take time to reach out to me. You know, they don't have to do that. They paid for this class, so, hopefully, they expect to have an educator that puts a lot of effort in. And so it's just really nice for them to take time out of their schedule to do that. They've been a really fun group, And this is my last time teaching probably for a while, so it's kinda nice to go out on a good note with a lot of kind students
Jam:Dude, totally.
Melissa:Who are engaged and excited about the material.
Jam:Yeah. That's awesome.
Melissa:That's great. Smell a lot to me.
Jam:Very cool.
Melissa:Yeah. So thanks to all those students. I think some of them actually have even started listening to the podcast. So that's you.
Jam:That's the reward you guys get as you get you get, what's the word, bragged on?
Melissa:Bragged on. You meant so much to me this This summer semester, so thank you. You're hearing this probably at least a month from when the class ended because it's July now, and we're recording ahead of time. But you in summer one Really meant a lot to me. So thanks.
Melissa:And also thanks to you, Jim, for coming and learning, and to Kate for asking about the chemistry of tattoos. And I can't way to actually answer your question next week when we talk about the removal of tattoos.
Jam:Thank you for teaching us. And if you have an idea like Kate did, a question about chemistry in everyday life you'd like to ask us, please reach out to us on Gmail, Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook at That's Kim, f o r, your life to share your thoughts and ideas. If you like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, Go to kodashfi.com/kem for your life or tap the link in our show notes to donate the cost of a cup of coffee. If you're not able to donate, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast app and rating and writing a review on Apple Podcasts. That also helps us to share chemistry with even more people.
Melissa:This episode of chemistry free life was created by Melissa Collini and Jame Robinson. References for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. Robinson is our producer, and we'd like to give a special thanks to a Molina who reviewed this episode.
