What's the future of recycling?
Hey. I'm Melissa.
Jam:I'm Jam.
Melissa:And I'm a chemist.
Jam:And I'm not.
Melissa:And welcome to chemistry for your life.
Jam:The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.
Melissa:Okay, Jim. How are you doing today?
Jam:I'm doing great. I've got coffee. I am a little sniffly, but it's for a good reason.
Melissa:What is a good reason?
Jam:Because it's fall now.
Melissa:Yay. It's fall.
Jam:I think we've actually technically already recorded one episode when it's being officially fall, but it's feeling like fall these days now.
Melissa:Yes. It's getting cool. I think this morning, I woke up, and My air conditioner was colder. The temperature in my house is colder than what my air conditioner was set to.
Jam:Yeah. Nice.
Melissa:And that's when I start to get really excited. Mhmm.
Jam:And there's, like, a few reasons you decided. One, it's awesome. 2, you could maybe crack a window at night instead, which could save some Mhmm. Cha ching. That's what we like to do, if you have screens on your windows.
Jam:And, also, it's just great to be able to, in Texas, go outside and enjoy the outside and not have to Sweat and be hot all the time.
Melissa:I know for real. Well, we're gonna do an episode about fall. Don't worry.
Jam:Okay. I think
Melissa:next week, we're gonna talk about why the leaves are changing.
Jam:Oh, nice.
Melissa:But the topic at hand is about restoring hope to recycling.
Jam:Yes. The hope that We didn't have much of after last episode.
Melissa:Yes. I left you with despair. Yeah. But here's what's really exciting about this episode. There was so much information that I plan to write 2 episodes when I sat down to write this, and it took so much time to sort through so much that happened I was only able to write 1 episode.
Jam:Oh, dang.
Melissa:So that means there are exciting things happening in the world of recycling.
Jam:Excellent. Okay. Great. I'll take it.
Melissa:So there's there's a lot of different scientists who are contributing to this, a lot of different types of So it's not all just chemists, but, ultimately, it is all chemical recycling that we're gonna talk about today.
Jam:Mhmm. Okay. Okay. Sweet. So that means the kind that is not just melting it down.
Jam:Right?
Melissa:Right. The kind that is Breaking the molecular level back down to be reusable at a molecular level.
Jam:Nice. Okay. Sweet.
Melissa:So I count this all as chemistry of your life even though maybe not chemists are working on and developing this technology.
Jam:Okay. Well, still, like, they would be employing chemistry in a way.
Melissa:Like That's right. Right.
Jam:There's chemistry happening whether they Like it or not.
Melissa:That's exactly right.
Jam:I mean, I'm
Melissa:sure they like it. Science, you know, science is science.
Jam:Yeah. What's not to like?
Melissa:So exactly, Jam, what's not to like
Jam:Just try it.
Melissa:All the dark stuff that we talked about.
Jam:Right. That's true.
Melissa:Yeah. Ideally, jam, chemical recycling would be our best bet for a few reasons. 1, Chemical recycling turns the at the molecular level, it takes polymers back down to either monomers or much Shorter chunks
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Of molecules. So shorter chains of hydrocarbons Mhmm. Or what's known as oligomers. That basically means really short polymer chains.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So chemical recycling returns those polymers back down to smaller, more manageable molecular level.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And then you can either use that oil to make something else, or if you've returned it all the way back down to the monomers, You can recreate what's known as virgin plastics or plastics that haven't been melted down and recycled mechanical recycling.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So that's ideal because it's makes a product that is as good as new plastic.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:It's molecularly the same as new plastic. So we can either make something as good as new plastic or we can make Other things with the oils that it creates if it doesn't get all the way back to the monomer level.
Jam:Okay. Okay.
Melissa:And it's It's more resistant to contamination. So mechanical recycling, we talked about how we have to clean it and all those Little molecules left behind that we don't think are a big deal can impact the polymer itself.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:But a lot of chemical recycling isn't impacted by that contamination. So it can be more it can more efficiently recycle things that are contaminated.
Jam:Nice. It wouldn't have to be a whole process before you even start just to try to get things clean or whatever.
Melissa:Exactly.
Jam:Nice. Okay. Sweet.
Melissa:But here's the big deal. Here's the big problem that I see is the theme with chemical recycling.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:We talked about all the different kinds of plastic. There's the 1, 2, 3, 4, all that stuff on the bottom of the plastic bins, and then there's other thermostat plastics. You know? Mhmm. So with all those different kinds of plastics, that means we might need all those different kinds of chemical recycling.
Jam:Oh, yeah. You couldn't just do the same kind for each one. Right?
Melissa:Right. It's not one size fits all because At the molecular level, they're different. So an example I'll give you is a method that is used currently that's already used To chemically recycle plastics is known as pyrolysis. So pyrolysis is essentially just Heating in the absence of oxygen so it doesn't combust, so there's no fire.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And that usually breaks Down long polymer chains into shorter carbon chains. In some cases, you can use paralysis to get all the way back down to the monomer level. That's these molecules. Mhmm. So it's great.
Melissa:They're using it right now. There's a company right now in Oregon that is doing well from what I can tell named Agilex. Uh-huh. And they're using pyrolysis to turn polystyrene, so that's the more styrofoamy type Uh-huh. Back into the styrene monomer, and then they're selling styrene to be made back into a polymer.
Jam:That's incredible. I've always heard Yes. That, like, Styrofoam right. That's like that's what polystyrene is. Right?
Melissa:Uh-huh. It's I think there's other types of polystyrene, but I think Styrofoam is made of of puffed up Yeah. Polystyrene.
Jam:I just always heard that, like, that's one of the worst things that we have out there, and it's really hard to reuse and or break back down. And one thing I heard too is that each I mean, like, you obviously can't Burn it. You know? It just Right. Gets all weird and probably releases weird fumes and stuff.
Jam:And so, K. That's cool. That's
Melissa:do it under the right conditions of pyrolysis, they can, and they're doing it right now.
Jam:Nice. Dude, that's awesome.
Melissa:And that's in Oregon. It looks like they're actually in the process of expanding and going to other places, but I was really encouraged to read that, and it's working really well. There are some other plastics that they're using different types of viralysis on. You I think you can tweak the conditions to make different things, But that has to be in the absence of oxygen. Right?
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:So that it doesn't catch fire and combust. So any plastic that contains oxygen cannot be used for pyrolysis. And PET, that our plastic soda bottles and all that stuff are made out of, has oxygen in it. So that's an example of 1 size doesn't fit all. We've got pyrolysis that works for polystyrene, breaking it down into styrene monomer and being able to resell We've got pyrolysis being used for other diff I think it is they often use pyrolysis for Polyethylene, HDPE, and LDPE.
Melissa:Although it's just not as common because I think it's expensive and not as straightforward as the melting down and reusing. And Got it. HDPE is really good for that. So but they are using paralysis, but they can't use it for everything.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:So another method that's currently being used is called depolymerization. So depolymerization could be Done in a few ways. You can use catalysts or enzymes. So a company in France, I believe, called Carbios, is using enzymes to break down PET since it doesn't work for pyrolysis.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:And it I don't know if you remember, but PET is a polymer that has 2 alternating monomers, it goes a b a b instead of just a a a a. Okay. Okay. So because of that, they're actually using this enzyme to break it back down into its 2 respective monomers. They're known as terephthalic acid and ethylene glycol Uh-huh.
Melissa:Which that I think would be a little bit more complicated of a process because then they'd have to separate those 2 out. But there is a company that's working on developing that and scaling it up to an industrial level right now.
Jam:Wow. Dang. Mhmm. That's awesome.
Melissa:So we've got paralysis that works for some and depolymerization that work for others, and those are current technology that's being utilized.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So those are our 2 methods that are already, I would say, on the market and being scaled up or already scaled up to be used for commercial level.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So and I'm using a lot of the big jargony terms like monomer and depolymerization and all this stuff. And I encourage you, if this is your 1st episode, just pause right now, go back, and listen to the first 2 episodes because we talk about what those words mean a lot more in those other 2 episodes.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:But now I figure everyone's pretty much along for the ride. So You know? I jumped right into the chemistry jargon. I try not to do that normally, but Now I wanna switch gears to new things on the market or new things that I think will be coming in the market Somewhat soon that scientists are working on. I would say it's in the research phase, in the lab phase right now.
Jam:Okay. Sweet.
Melissa:One, mealworms.
Jam:Oof.
Melissa:Mealworms eat plastic. It's a fact. No one's contesting it.
Jam:Okay. That's weird.
Melissa:That's weird and exciting. There's a fun story where a scientist had a bee she keeps Bees, and there's a mealworm infestation. And she was pulling them out or a waxworm infestation. She was pulling them out of her bee house and put them in a plastic grocery bag or whatever. Uh-huh.
Melissa:And then in a few minutes, there was that bag was covered in holes, and the mealworms were everywhere, and she realized that they were eating the plastic.
Jam:Holy. Is that Holy. I mean, maybe this is obvious because they're doing this on purpose now, but Could that be bad for the mealworms? Like
Melissa:Okay. Well, there's a lot of research on this. That's a great question. But first, I'll say our number 1 question is, Are they dissolving the plastic back down to or breaking down the plastic back down to monomers, or are they just making it really tiny microplastic?
Jam:Oh, yeah. Right.
Melissa:Because it being microplastic isn't really beneficial to us. Yeah.
Jam:It just makes it seem like that's not a problem, but it still all exists.
Melissa:Yes. So one of the first things they did was grind up these mealworms and make a paste out of it and see if it would break down The plastic. Mhmm. And 1 researcher says, yes. That's definitely what happened.
Melissa:Another researcher can tested it.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:So there There's kind of it's so new that there's a little bit of a lack of seeing eye to eye on how we can really confirm that. That's the big question about mealworms. So we have to figure out if this is true before we can really move forward with the mealworm situation.
Jam:Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay.
Melissa:But there is a research group that's studying a lot of this, and one of them looked at how mealworms We're eating some polystyrene that was coated in a flame retardant
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:That's pretty toxic. Mhmm. And she found that Virtually all of the toxic flame retardant had been eliminated from their system, and they were still healthy after eating it.
Jam:Wow. And then
Melissa:they took those mealworms and fed them to shrimp.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And the shrimp were healthy as well, even eating Mealworms that had eaten flame retardant coated plastic.
Jam:Wow. Dang, dude.
Melissa:I know. Isn't that wild?
Jam:Seriously. Dude, it's like Once again, nature finds a way. It's like that's crazy. I mean, if it ends up being as promising as it seems, that's way cool.
Melissa:Yeah. Nature finds a way. And the possibilities for this, if if we can confirm that they are breaking it back down to their monomers, which Can be reclaimed by the environment, basically. Mhmm. That opens up a lot of possibilities Composting plastic.
Melissa:If you have some mealworms in a compost pile, you could compost plastic in addition to cardboard and Paper towels and all that stuff.
Jam:Oh my gosh. That'd be so awesome. Can you imagine?
Melissa:It would be awesome. Yeah. I was so excited at about this. Obviously, we don't just wanna make microplastics, which can have another environmental problem. But if they are truly breaking down, I am very interested to see how that will revolutionize plastic.
Melissa:And I think they only could probably process some kinds of plastic, but we could Just compost our plastic bags that we get from the grocery store or whatever.
Jam:Yeah. Absolutely. That'd be that'd be already a huge start. I'm always like In our city, and I think in probably a lot of cities, we can't put those plastic bags into the recycling bin, unfortunately.
Melissa:I think
Jam:a lot of people do, but our at least our System here can't, recycle those right now, and so you really have to throw them in the trash or take them to
Melissa:Or you could take them
Jam:their grocery store where They they say that they can send them off to be be recycled. But it's just a bug because you know that means a lot of people aren't actually recycling them, including Definitely. Including us sometimes. I'm like, I'm not gonna remember to do that. Or we'll use them for to pick up after our dog, you know, something like that.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:But should end up needing it to just be put in the trash. So, dude, that'd be so cool.
Melissa:I know. I was very excited about that one.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And further on the theme of Nature Finds A Way, bacteria Isolated from outside a bottle recycling facility in not America. I don't remember where it was. It was an international paper. Can break down and metabolize plastic using 2 enzymes. Mhmm.
Melissa:They break down PET specifically. Wow.
Jam:Yes. And that to be introduced
Melissa:they have confirmed. They break them back down to their monomers.
Jam:Wow. Does that they be introduced in the right way, like, get both of these enzymes into the situation?
Melissa:Well, when I read the paper, it seemed that if the bacteria grew on grew on PET. If you were feeding it PET from the beginning Mhmm. Those enzymes Would occur naturally in them was my understanding, but they figured out which 2 enzymes were doing it.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Now these bacteria are slow, So they they probably won't solve all of our problems.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And they don't want the crystalline state of PET, which I think is a more semi solid state that we normally have in our bottles and stuff, they want a more malleable form is the best way I can describe it.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But that is still wild to me that bacteria can process and break down PET into It's monomers using some enzymes.
Jam:Yeah. Seriously.
Melissa:And they didn't talk about this in the paper that I saw, but I would assume We could possibly grow that bacteria, isolate those enzymes, and then use the enzymes to break down the plastic. I don't know for a fact. I'm not a biologist. There's a lot of questions I have, but that would be my first next thought as I As a researcher is, let's isolate these enzymes, scale them up for commercial use, and break down the piles
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Of plastic. Yeah. You know?
Jam:Yeah. Totally. Dude, this is getting exciting. This is the kind of stuff where I'm like, I could see to be a future where We figured out something. We all have a mealworm bin in our houses, or we all have a enzyme bin.
Jam:And, you know, in 2050, we're like, oh, yeah. Remember back whenever we had No idea. We're just scratching our heads. We had no idea what to do about all this plastic, and it was piling up everywhere. And it was just chaos.
Jam:It's crazy how that used to be the case. We've we don't have that anymore. That would be so nice.
Melissa:Yeah. I really it was fun to daydream about That Yeah. I know. I was thinking, what if we all had compost piles with this this specific type of bacteria is called I'm gonna butcher it because I'm not a bat I'm not a biologist. Mhmm.
Melissa:Sacinesis. Ideanella Sacanesis.
Jam:Alright.
Melissa:Hopefully, I said that right. But we'll link to some journal articles about it. It was really exciting to read, and it was really fun to imagine. We're all gonna have compost bins with this bacteria in it, And we'll just be able to feel as good about throwing our egg cartons, our pizza boxes, and our plastic bags in our compost pile.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:That's the dream.
Jam:That is the dream. Dude, that'd be so cool. I would like to watch it too. Like, go out every morning and be like, alright. How's it going, guys?
Jam:What have we all eating today? It's just like we gotta have fun.
Melissa:We did link to a National Geographic video that goes through a lot of what we've gone through, but much more quickly Mhmm. On what plastic even is, and then it talks about some of these things. And there's a video of the mealworms eating the Styrofoam, and it's pretty fun. I mean, we just don't know for sure if it breaks it down Yeah. Or not, but it's still really fun to watch mealworms eat the Styrofoam.
Jam:Okay. Scientists out there, just if if you need any beta testers, I'll take some worms, and I'll feed them stuff. Just let me know. Okay?
Melissa:Okay. So another approach has been to essentially Just try to make things that are more compostable and biodegradable. Mhmm. And one thing I thought was really fun is a designer in I don't remember where he's located. Not in America.
Melissa:Okay. But he's collaborating with another design strategist named I'm gonna get this wrong. His name is Sebastian Cox, and her name is Nanella Ivanovna
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:I believe. And they are working on using fungus to grow furniture that is compostable, biodegradable, lightweight, strong, you can sit on it, And it's kinda cute. So far, they've only made lamps and stools. You can go to their website and check it out.
Jam:Oh, man. I've gotta see this.
Melissa:Lamps aren't Quite up my alley, but the stool, I really like a lot. And they essentially use fungus to grow this furniture, and it I just think it's really interesting, and he said that he daydreams about one day we all use biodegradable furniture instead of the current plastic, Polymer polys, synthetic stuff that we're using. So
Jam:Dude, interesting.
Melissa:Yeah. It's wild, and it kinda looks like a pancake. I'll send you a link of it, and we'll also link to this on our references. So it's Sebastian Cox and Nonyola Ivanovna.
Jam:Oh, dude. Yeah. I'm looking at it now. Definitely looks Very interesting. I see I see what you're saying about pancake.
Jam:For me, I'm getting some serious, like, tortilla vibes.
Melissa:Uh-huh.
Jam:The lamp, especially, looks like it just a like, A weird mass, and then a tortilla is on top of it wrapped around.
Melissa:Yes. I'm not as in love with the lamp, but I can really get behind these stools.
Jam:Interesting. I I think, in general, it's a little too weird looking for me so far. I mean now maybe it just needs some time. But the If they maybe grew this and then, like, cut it and shaped it and then painted it, and then you wouldn't really know
Melissa:Oh, yeah. That it
Jam:was Mhmm. But they're just showing the bare fungus of it.
Melissa:Right. Yeah.
Jam:It just looks too much like some food to me. Like, even the stool is, like, monkey bread a little bit.
Melissa:Yeah. Well, I love it. I love the idea of it. I think it's really cool. I could definitely paint the top half of it at least, but it is very exciting to me that There are people coming up with things like this.
Melissa:And Right.
Jam:Yeah. For sure.
Melissa:He's he sort of said he daydreams about this being as normal as Having any old kind of furniture in your house, and he said that if he can figure out how to waterproof it, You could use this really for anything that you would normally use plastic for. Mhmm. And that's a really good idea because I don't super care what my food containers look like. I mean, Styrofoam's not the cutest looking food container. So if we have a biodegradable option, it wouldn't matter that it looks a little bit like a tortilla.
Melissa:As long as it's waterproof, it gets the job done, and I would love to have a biodegradable option.
Jam:So Totally.
Melissa:It was really cool to sort of see him daydreaming and Look at that new interesting option.
Jam:That's a good point. So many of our, like, single use, very quick, the short lifespan plastics don't look good in the 1st place. They already kinda look like trash because we see them everywhere. It'd be nice for it to just be something that that will actually break down. That's awesome.
Melissa:Yeah. So there's a lot of other stuff going on. Those are some highlights I liked. But just to quickly tell you, There's some people working on methods of breaking down those cross link polymers in thermostat Mhmm. Polymers, the Cross link bonds that make it really strong and hard to break down Uh-huh.
Melissa:And not good for mechanical recycling. There are some people who are working on making new recyclable plastics from something like Eugenol, which is in Nutmeg from soybean oil. They're doing things with plastics that are created with recycling in mind rather than as an Afterthought.
Jam:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Melissa:There's some packaging that's, quote, edible plastic. So I think they use this actually at maybe the Boston Marathon, but You can create a polymer in situ that encapsulates water Uh-huh. Or Gatorade or whatever, and you can Do this at home as a science experiment. You have to buy some things. I think we might do it for 1 of ours if we can plan ahead to get it because it's pretty cool, but It basically is these little jelly plastics of water Yeah.
Melissa:And you can either sort of burst them open and drink out of them and they're biodegradable, or you can just eat the whole thing. Woah. And they used it at a marathon and saved so much plastic water bottles. It was really, really cool to see.
Jam:Nice. Yeah. There's, like, tons of those little cups. It's what they they also use for Marathon stuff that I'm sure that, like, makes a huge difference not to have to use that.
Melissa:Right. And they are even looking at using milk proteins for food packaging. So there's all kinds of stuff that's happening right now that scientists are doing, that they're looking for alternative A lot of that is still currently in the research literature phase, in the development phase not being commercialized. Some of it is further along than others, but It is really cool to see a new wave of let's fix this plastic problem. Yeah.
Melissa:And I was really encouraged. There's so much going on. It's hard to know what will be a thing that Can really tackle the plastics problem, but I assume that all these things together will help us reduce our dependence on plastic. And, hopefully, We can find a practical cost efficient way to chemically recycle plastics to make It costs exactly the same and be the exact same quality as brand new plastics being made, And then we won't have to continually regenerate plastic into our environment. We can reclaim some plastic that's in the environment.
Melissa:And that is what I hope for, and I think that's what we're moving towards with all this research.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. Dude, awesome. That's so cool. So we're kind of in a situation again where there's not, like, a chemistry lesson for me to explain back to you.
Melissa:Right. Yeah. I keep doing that
Jam:to you. But I'll say I think, 1, all of it is exciting, so it's kinda hard to pick 1 or 2 highlights to to say back, but I think my biggest takeaway from this whole deal is just the idea of Making plastics that are different from the very beginning. Obviously, there's a lot of plastic already out there to deal with, but I feel really hopeful about some of those options that are different plastics from the very beginning that won't have the same problems. Either they're not even really plastic. They're made from something else like fungus, or the plastic that is made that can be Biodegradable from the very beginning before it even enters, you know, being used by us.
Jam:If they could make straws and cups and all kinds of stuff from that kind of plastic or something in the future where we don't actually even have to worry about trying to Come up with these other methods for chemical recycling, that'd be so cool. And I think that
Melissa:Right.
Jam:That's probably Gonna have to be the case because even if we come up with a really good chemical recycling methods, wouldn't it be even better To prevent needing to do that with all the plastic that we use and trying to retrain everybody to use less or something, I feel like Replacing the plastic with something better would be, like, the most positive potential option in the future.
Melissa:Right. I think that's true. And then in the meantime, I think until we get to that option, attempting to just Reduce your onetime use plastics as much as possible because right now, we don't have a solution. These are solutions on the horizon or solutions that are working locally or that they're working on, but in the meantime, we don't have a solution. So continuing to just dump one time use plastic into the environment at Billions of kilograms per year is not a good decision, I think, But there is hope for the future.
Melissa:But in the meantime, really trying to reduce that one time use plastic. If everyone does a little bit of that Mhmm. We can significantly reduce our plastic usage.
Jam:Nice. Nice.
Melissa:Well, since all of that was kind of a happy, exciting episode. And because we're kind of running long on time Mhmm. I say we go ahead and wrap it up. And then next week, we'll go back to normal episode style where it's a new chemistry lesson. You'll get to learn it and teach it back to me, and we can update Our listeners on our lives.
Jam:Sounds good to me. Yep. There's been plenty of happiness in this episode, so I think that's a good move.
Melissa:Thanks so much for daydreaming with me, and I hope listeners, you guys are doing that as well about the way that it could look to use plastics in the future, the way that we could Replace them with something that's more environment environmentally friendly or have options for recycling them that are much nicer to the environment. But in the meantime, let's just cut back on our plastic use and be aware of what's happening in our environment.
Jam:Amen. And thank you for teaching us and sharing There's hope with us, and I'm gonna feel a little bit better about the future. Yeah.
Melissa:It was a lot more fun.
Jam:Yeah. Hey, man. Wilson, I have a lot of ideas like this of topics of chemistry in everyday life, but wanna hear from you. The things that you wonder about, things you worry about, the things you're just curious about, Let us know what those are. You can reach out to us on Gmail, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at chem for your life.
Jam:That's fem, f o r, Your life to share your thoughts and ideas. If you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to kodashfi.com/ Come for your life and donate the cost of a cup of coffee. If you're not able to donate, you can still help us by subscribing on our favorite podcast app in rating and writing review on Apple Podcasts. That also helps us to be able to share chemistry with even more people.
Melissa:This episode of Chemistry For Your Life was created by Melissa Colini and Jame Robinson. References for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. Robinson is our producer, and we'd like to give a special thanks to a and v Garza who reviewed this episode.
