What is ebonized wood?
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Melissa:I'm Melissa.
Jam:I'm Jam.
Melissa:And I'm a chemist.
Jam:And I'm not.
Melissa:And welcome to chemistry for your life.
Jam:The podcast that helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.
Melissa:Okay, Jim. This week, we're going to be responding to a listener question
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:That I I think is really cool, and I learned something new. So that's exciting.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:So listener Shane w responded to our story, and he has an Instagram called old crafts and conservation where he makes really beautiful woodworking pieces
Jam:Oh, nice.
Melissa:So that will make this next question make a little more sense, I think.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But he asked, why does iron turn wood black?
Jam:I guess I didn't even know that it did. I don't know much about that in the whole Me world.
Melissa:Either. So go right now, you, Jam, and listeners as well, and look up if you're not driving, like, if you can safely do this, go look up ebonized wood.
Jam:Okay. I'm on images, and it looks I guess what I expected from the phrase, eponymous wood, it looks black.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:But you can see the wood grain still. So There's, like, some shelves and some boards and stuff like that, and you can at an angle, you could still see that it has the grain. So it's not like it's just It doesn't look like it's just been painted that way or whatever. I don't know.
Melissa:Right. It's, like, stained that way.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. Basically, like, a super dark stain is what it looks like.
Melissa:Right. Absolutely. So that's kind of what it is.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So what happens is, surprise, surprise, a little chemistry reaction.
Jam:And those are rare. I mean, chemistry doesn't happen very often almost anywhere.
Melissa:Nope. Chemistry's barely part of your everyday life. Interesting. It's very exciting. It's also kind of hard to find resources on this.
Melissa:So I did the best tycodewithwhatIhad
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But there you'll find out at the end, there are a lot of other sort of related things, so it was hard to narrow down on this specific thing.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And the field we're going into right now is inorganic chemistry.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So that's not organic chemistry. It's I n organic, nonorganic, inorganic chemistry.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:It's hard to say that when you often say in organic chemistry, like, oh, I was in my organic chemistry class the other day, and so it's sometimes hard to tell the difference between them.
Jam:Totally. It's one of those weird things where it's like, man, we've gotta change these words a little bit before How? We really got going as a society.
Melissa:So inorganic chemistry deals with things other than carbon, like metal, usually. It's metal bonds. Metal things are inorganic chemistry. And we've talked about some inorganic chemistry stuff before. We talked a lot about actually inorganic type things on our episode about Rust, and that's gonna come up a lot today as well.
Jam:Okay. Got it. So it's not it doesn't have anything to do with it being, like, You know, free range, non GMO,
Melissa:chemistry. Nothing like that.
Jam:Just Doesn't have anything to do with carbon.
Melissa:Yeah. There are carbons involved, but the main chemistry is happening on the metal.
Jam:Got it. Okay. Got it.
Melissa:Okay. So what happens when you put iron, it's actually iron ions, so iron that has lost some electrons
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:On wood, it's reacting with something in the wood called tannins to make a new thing. And that new thing is black.
Jam:K.
Melissa:So that's a lot like with rust. The iron was reacting with the oxygen.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And it created a new thing that was red.
Jam:Oh, right. Right. Yeah.
Melissa:So that's exactly what's happening here is there's something in the wood called tannins, and those are reacting with the iron ions that we're gonna put on it, and it makes a new thing called iron tan 8, and that's a bluish black color. And that's why, in the simplest terms, why iron turns wood black. Okay. Doesn't really turn the wood black as much as it creates a new substance that's black.
Jam:Yeah. Interesting.
Melissa:Okay. So now let's dig into those deets.
Jam:Okay. Sweet.
Melissa:Okay. So what is a tannin? I'm sure everyone's wondering that. Have you heard the word Tannen before? I have
Jam:I have heard their word before. I can't remember if it was related to his podcast Or if it's been part of any of the, like, hobby dive Dives I've done done on the Internet about, I can't remember if that's part of leather stuff at all and how they color leather It's like that.
Melissa:It is.
Jam:Okay. K. I saw it. It sounded familiar.
Melissa:Yeah. So we'll probably talk about we'll talk about that a little more at the end, but I thought you maybe had heard the word tannin because you do like leather quite a bit.
Jam:Yes. I do. In, like, a normal way, everyone. It just I like things to be high quality And last a long time.
Melissa:Right. Yeah. So there's not a clear definition when people say tannins. They just generally refer refer to a class of molecules found in nature. And when I say class of molecules, we've talked about that before.
Melissa:A class is just like a group that people put together that are similar to each other.
Jam:Based on how much money they earn. Right?
Melissa:Based on, yeah, their status, and this is your economics. No. It's more like their similar properties put them together. Like a school of fish is similar fish or whatever.
Jam:Okay. Okay.
Melissa:Or maybe school of fish is the same fish, and that's a bad example.
Jam:Right. Good point.
Melissa:Yeah, maybe it's like like, if you have a family of colors, you know, they're all different types of red, but they're all reds.
Jam:Yes. Yes.
Melissa:It's kinda like that. They're similar in that they all have these specific properties, but they're not the same ones.
Jam:Yes. Okay. That's helpful. That color one helped me.
Melissa:So the tannins are in a class of molecules that are found really commonly in nature and plants and stuff.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And they have polyphenols, and that just means they have a lot of stable rings called aromatic rings with alcohol groups on them. There's a lot of those.
Jam:And that word came up recently, and then I feel like In the past, like, 12 episodes, some point you said that word.
Melissa:Polyphenols or phenols?
Jam:Polyphenols.
Melissa:I believe it, but I don't remember about what.
Jam:Yeah. Man, there's no way of knowing. Boy, there's some recording Have all our conversation, but there's not I
Melissa:wonder if it was in the syrup episode.
Jam:Oh, maybe. Anyway, we know we, yeah, we retain information to everyone. We remember exactly what things we talked about week to week.
Melissa:I I think you're right. I think that that sounds right.
Jam:I just I think what's funny is that I definitely heard you say it, but I I don't remember what it was. It might have been that you just said it's one of the Many things is created as a byproduct whenever syrup is boiled down.
Melissa:Oh, maybe so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds right.
Melissa:That would be my guess about what we've talked about lately.
Jam:Yeah. But who knows? If you know.
Melissa:Who knows? Past us knows on whichever episode that was.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:So tannins are just that class of molecules.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But tannic acid is a specific structure. It has a glucose, which is a type of sugar ring in the middle. So it got a big ring made of carbons and oxygens in the middle, and it has a bunch of those phenols around it.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:It's got, like, 5 of them, and then each of those have another one on it. So it's 10 total all around it.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And that tannic acid will find the iron ions and bind to
Jam:it. Okay.
Melissa:Usually 3 tannic acids bind around the iron.
Jam:Okay. And just to make sure that I mean, obviously, we had a couple of of little tandems and rabbit trails. This is we're just talking about the tannins are part of the wood already?
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:Okay. Just wanna make sure that I knew which thing was part of what already. So That's already there. Yes. And iron has not beef even before iron's been introduced or or anything like
Melissa:that?
Jam:Got it. Okay. Cool. Cool.
Melissa:And I wasn't super clear on tannic acid if that was one of the tannins that was already there or if when you expose it to acidic conditions, a tannin, like, converts to tannic acid, my guess is that tannic acid is one of the tannins already in wood. Okay.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:But it was hard to find resources specifically on this exact reaction.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:There's a lot of resources about what happens after, you know, about this thing that's formed, but not a lot about how it is formed in this process.
Jam:Mhmm. Mhmm. But but
Melissa:if anyone else can find anything, I'd love to hear about it. So if you're an inorganic chemist and you do all kinds of ebonizing wood, hit me up, we wanna hear from you. To this tannic acid, 3 tannic acids will form around the 1 iron ion. In this whole structure, with the 3 tannic acids bound to the iron ion
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Is known as a complex.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Which is fine because it's kind of complex. It's a metal complex. So a metal atom with molecules around it or sometimes atoms or other ions is known as a complex.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:The molecules that are around the ion, in fancy inorganic chemistry terms are called ligands.
Jam:Okay. I just felt
Melissa:like I'd share that with you guys. In case you're chatting with an inorganic chemist, you can say, the ligands form a complex with the whatever, and then you'll sound fancy.
Jam:Oh, so Liggins, you said?
Melissa:Liggins.
Jam:Yes. Interesting. This Sounds kinda fun to say. I feel like I would also like to try to find an excuse to say that word.
Melissa:Yeah. It's fun. The ligands form a complex. I don't know if you'd say with tannic acid or the tannic acid acts as a ligand to form a complex with a metal or something like that. So you can sound fancy, but really all it means is that tannic acid forms bonds of the iron to make something new.
Jam:K. Got it.
Melissa:So that's a little quick inorganic chemistry lesson for you. And, really, what the tannic acid does is give some electrons to the positively charged iron ion so that it's neutral, so it can all neutralize out and be stable and happy.
Jam:Got it. Okay. And then they're sharing those electrons. Right? Like, they don't
Melissa:Yes. They I think in a this kind of bond with between the ligand and the metal, they're shared electrons.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Sometimes one thing loses electrons, the other thing gains electrons, and they just hang out near each other, but I think this is more similar to sharing the electrons.
Jam:Okay. Cool. Cool. Because I was wondering, like
Melissa:quote me on it. That's what my inorganic chemistry textbook said earlier today.
Jam:Okay. I was curious, like, why they would stay together if they weren't sharing them, but I guess it sounds like that can happen sometimes.
Melissa:Yes. Sometimes scenarios. That does happen like table salt is NaCl, and really it's positively charged sodium and negatively charged chlorine. And so they're not really sharing electrons, but they do hang out near each other because one's positive and one's negative.
Jam:Interesting. Okay. But in this case, it seems like they are sharing.
Melissa:Yes, that's how my textbook made it seem. Okay. But I'm not pretending to be an inorganic chemist out here today. So
Jam:And can we even trust books? It's Jury's to wow.
Melissa:Yes. We can trust books. Some books, anyway. Okay. So now the question is, how do you get iron ions to just put on your wood?
Jam:Mhmm. Okay.
Melissa:And the way that you get it is exactly what we talked in our rest episode, it said you can dissolve iron with acid. So you can use vinegar and put something like steel wool in there that's pretty thin so it'll dissolve more easily. Leave it in there for a week or so, and you'll basically get a solution with dissolved iron ions in it.
Jam:Oh, wow. Mhmm. Interesting. I didn't think about this week's name that you would make. Like, I thought you go to your you go to Home Depot and you get, You know, dissolved iron.
Jam:But I didn't even think about that you could maybe do it yourself. Mhmm. So
Melissa:you get your wool and you add it to acid
Jam:Sid or
Melissa:add acid to it
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:It's going to react.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And the iron ions will interact with the negatively charged part of the acid, and and the positively charged part will interact with oxygen or something else. I didn't look up this specific reaction before we started. Mhmm.
Jam:But
Melissa:I if I had to guess and based on memory from the rest episode, I would guess that it makes some kind of iron salt. So the iron's a positive charge, and maybe the what used to be part of the acid would be the negative part.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And so then you have an iron salt just dissolved in your acid
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Would be my guess. Okay. And the acid that I believe is most commonly used for that is just vinegar.
Jam:Mhmm. Wow. That's, like, that's the one that we all have, basically.
Melissa:Yeah. So you can do 2 reactions. 1, to get 3 floating iron ions and then put it onto your wood that has tannic acid in it Mhmm. That's going to react with those ions, you're doing another reaction to make iron tannin, your lovely blue, blackish stain.
Jam:Wow. Interesting. So as it's dissolving even just the iron from, like, the steel wool or whatever, it will start turning the vinegar Black already?
Melissa:The vinegar already is. Even though that's not iron tannin, it does get kind of dark in the vinegar solution, which I'm not sure if it's because whatever is dissolved in there, has kind of that color.
Jam:Oh, okay.
Melissa:But when you put it on the wood, it looks a little dark. But as the reaction happens, over time, it gets darker and darker
Jam:Wow. Okay.
Melissa:Until it's reached its, like, dark stain color. And
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:It varies depending on the tannins that are in the wood. So if there's more tannins in the wood or less tannins in the wood, it'll go darker or lighter. So there's just either more or less of the substance, so it can look more gray.
Jam:Oh, okay.
Melissa:And if there's a different type of tannins, I believe, it called refer 1 paper referred to them as condensed tannins. It could make a greenish black
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Instead of the bluish black, you know Mhmm. That you can see, they'll be there's sometimes, like, an undertone to black. Mhmm. So it can make bluish black or greenish black.
Jam:Got it. Got it. K. Interesting.
Melissa:Are you tracking?
Jam:I think so. Yeah.
Melissa:Alright. Do you wanna explain that back to me, and then I'll give you a whole host of fun facts about tannins?
Jam:Yes. I'd love to. Okay. So You know how sometimes we've talked about molecules interacting and, The reasons why they do, almost like a group of friends?
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:Okay. So in this case, it kinda seems to me like You've got the iron ion who is Lacking electrons. Right?
Melissa:Mhmm. Yes.
Jam:So, basically, if he's one of the he he's a friend out there. He basically has less of, say, what everybody wants when you're a teenager, like snacks or something.
Melissa:Alright. Less snacks. Yeah. That's a good one.
Jam:Miss missing out on on that. But then these Tannins, this tannic acid, they have all of them have a little bit more than they need.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And so this kinda mooch guy shows up, the iron Ion, and he's like, these guys over here, they seem like they've got plenty. And so he just kind of sneaks over there, and it actually works out fine because they are happy about it too because they have more snacks than they could even handle.
Melissa:Yeah. So they don't have to carry around these extra snacks.
Jam:Totally. They're like, okay. I guess, yeah, we'll let m and r group. And so so then they end up having a nice sort of happy scenario where He's in the middle being able to have access to all the snacks. Gosh.
Jam:Dig it.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:This is so dev. But and
Melissa:No. It's not. And then good.
Jam:And then, and they're happy too, and they stick together, basically.
Melissa:That is exactly right. I think so. I think that was a great analogy for it.
Jam:But so that's, like, obviously, how we get the that complex that ends up looking black. Right?
Melissa:Mhmm. Yes.
Jam:So before that even, we had to get the iron dissolved into a way to apply it to the wood, Which you said we do you do with a acid.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And so we just have to have some version of iron to dissolve and do it, like Steel wool or something.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And so we It's
Melissa:basically like you're doing 2 chemistry reactions this time.
Jam:Right. Right. Because I guess it wouldn't work very well just to, like, lay some steel wool on top of a piece of wood and call it a
Melissa:day. Because the irons, I don't think would be very, the ions, I don't think would be very available at that point.
Jam:Yeah. So you do that, and then you have a solution of the iron ions in something that can then be applied to the wood and then Can have a chance to interact with the tannic acid in there Mhmm. To buddy up, share snacks, and turn black.
Melissa:That's exactly right.
Jam:And is it did you say if there's a reason that it's turned black specifically?
Melissa:I don't really so why things are colors is pretty much usually just about the alternating double bonds and the light that they absorb.
Jam:Mhmm. And
Melissa:so that would be my guess is there's a lot of alternating double bonds in the tannic acid. And so to put all those together and then to have 3 of them, you know, that's that seems like a lot. Yeah. So that would be my guess, but I don't know for a fact. Interesting.
Melissa:Okay. That was great. I think you did a really good job.
Jam:Dude, thanks. That's also one of the things where I feel like, I shouldn't know much about that whole world at all, but this is very interesting. I'm I'm sure there's probably tons of chemistry in all the types of staining of Wood or whatever.
Melissa:I'm sure it's cool. Well, here's some other ways tannic acid is used or tannins are used. One, tannins are present in wine. Okay. 2, it seemed like they were looking into this iron tannate complex as a way to clean wastewater
Jam:K.
Melissa:3, it may, if your food has a lot of tannins in it from tea that you're drinking or stuff that's made from plants, which is where tannins are naturally found Mhmm. It could inhibit your iron absorption in your digestive system.
Jam:Oh, because they buddy up with the iron instead of it getting into your system. Mhmm. Oh, interesting.
Melissa:And you already hit on this, tannins are used in tanning leather.
Jam:Nice. Dude.
Melissa:And I don't know, but I'm wondering if that's where the name came from.
Jam:I would not be surprised. That that would make a lot more sense because It's not like the whole point has always been to make leather a tan color.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:You know? That's certainly ends up being what we, I think us lay people think. It's like, oh, you're tanning it. You're making it tan.
Melissa:It tan. Yeah.
Jam:But I feel like that certainly was not always What they're going for. So it seems like that chemical could make more sense as the name.
Melissa:And then, finally well, there's 2 more that are pretty cool, I think. Uh-huh. Iron tannate can be used as a rust converter. So if you have something that you want to restore that has a lot of rust on it, you can use tannin or tannins or tannic acid to convert the rust
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Into it'll be like a blue black cover.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:So they'll have rust converters that both have tannic acid said and a polymer so it converts it and then sets a coating over it all at once.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:And iron tannate was used to dye clothings and garbs long before modern times.
Jam:Dang. Before I probably even knew what was happening, but I was just like, hey. This stuff can do this.
Melissa:This stuff does this, so let's make it work. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
Jam:Yeah. That's crazy. Dude, there's, like, so many questions running the leather stuff that I feel like I have for you, at some point. But there are, like, many types of tanning of leather too Mhmm. That there have always wondered about.
Jam:So maybe someday we can purchase that as well.
Melissa:Do something on that. And I think in wine, that could also be interesting. I think tannins are gonna come back Yep. Let's just say that.
Jam:We haven't seen the last of them.
Melissa:Haven't seen the last of them. And I know my brother and I have talked about them, and my sister has talked about them. So I know we're gonna talk about tannins some more. Mhmm. So it's just a matter of time.
Jam:Okay. Sounds good.
Melissa:Alright. Well, do you wanna share about something from your week this week, Jam?
Jam:Yes. So kind of on the theme that we've been talking about of being Excited that some pandemic stuff is getting a little more hopeful and more people getting vaccinated. So it's feeling a little safer to hang out with people sometimes. And that's been nice, including getting The opportunity to hang out with some friends of ours who also had a baby during the pandemic. Mhmm.
Jam:And so then our son and their daughter were able to Hang out and, like, interact with each other and which they haven't really done. They haven't been around other babies, which is kinda crazy. And so it was a lot of fun and just cool to watch them interact and, like, like, touch each other and stuff and then, Like, play with toys on the floor together and stuff.
Melissa:Oh, I love that.
Jam:We also definitely secretly hope that they will end up, You know, falling in love someday. But we're just trying to put them near each other and just let them Have that idea at some at some point in the future.
Melissa:But also just remember, if it's either of you guys and you're listening to this in several years in the future, love is not the ultimate goal in life. Romantic love is not the ultimate goal in life.
Jam:Yeah. It's sort of selfish because we want a reason to be sort of related to our friends. So Yeah. I'll be honest about that being a huge part
Melissa:of it. So Well, mine is not as cute as that.
Jam:Okay. Well, it's okay. It'd be hard to have a cuter one. So
Melissa:It would be. So what I've been trying to do is slowly convert my lifestyle to be less and less waste.
Jam:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Melissa:And I feel like I keep finding little plastic tricks.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Such as balance sheets. That was my last one.
Jam:Oh, yeah.
Melissa:And I realized while I was shaving my legs in the shower that also my razor has plastic.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:And it's been subpar lately. You know? It gives those, like, bumps because my skin sensitive or whatever Uh-huh. So I went in search and found a safety razor.
Jam:Oh, nice. Yeah. Those are Classic.
Melissa:Classic. And they don't produce waste because you can recycle. You have to do it a specific way, but you can recycle the blades. Mhmm. And so I found it's rose gold and silver, and it's beautiful.
Melissa:And I did all kinds of research, and I picked out 1. And it came in the mail, and it's really beautiful. And I'm so excited
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:To use it, and I'm gonna use it with a soap bar that we got as a gift from some listeners.
Jam:Oh, yeah. Nice. Very cool.
Melissa:So we got a cool gift in the mail from some listeners. It was Isobel and Michael, and they have a little shop online. I think it's called Jolie is Isabelle or Jolly Isabelle. It looks French to me.
Jam:Mhmm. And
Melissa:it's really cute. And they also sent him some sent us some lotion, and it smells amazing and a bath bomb. I'm so excited. So, I'm really excited for that and to use my new soap bar with my new shave set up so that I can be nicer to the environment.
Jam:Dude, nice. Before I even thought about the environmental side, whenever I was Actually shaving with a razor. I had done a lot of looking into safety razors, and That is very cool. I've lost they're they're really cool, and I wanted to learn how to use 1. But then I got so lazy that I was like, I'm not even gonna use a razor.
Jam:I'll just use an electric trimmer thing and not ever be fully clean shaven. And that has also been Pretty good for the environment too.
Melissa:So That was an option online for the when I was looking into it, it was using an electric razor. But I like this shave I wanna clush shave. You know? So Yeah. I'm looking forward to trying it out.
Melissa:I will let you guys know, but it's one more area where there's no plastic in my life
Jam:Mhmm. Nice.
Melissa:That was inspired by my friend, natalie who also invested in a nice safety razor.
Jam:Nice. Very cool.
Melissa:So thanks, Natalie, for inspiring me to be more friendly to the environment, and thanks, Jim, for coming and learning about how to use iron to turn wood black. And thanks to all you listeners as well. We couldn't do this without you, and we are so thankful for you.
Jam:Well, Melissa, thanks for teaching us, and Thank you, Shane, for sending in this idea, this question. Melissa and I have a lot of our own ideas for topics of chemistry in everyday life, but we wanna hear from you The things that you wonder about, things that maybe even in your work, things that you work with like Shane does with wood, ask us. We'd love to delve into that with you guys. So reach out to us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Gmail at chem for your life. That's chem, f o r, your life, to share your thoughts and ideas.
Jam:If you like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to kodashfi.com/chem for your life, and donate the cost of a cup of coffee. And between now and the end of May, if you become a monthly subscriber, Melissa and I will send you a note and a sticker as a thank you. But if you're not able to donate, you can still help us by on your favorite podcast app and reading and writing our review on Apple Podcasts. That also helps us to share chemistry with even more people.
Melissa:This episode of Chemistry Free Life was created by Melissa Collini and Jam Robinson. References for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. Jam Robinson is our producer, and we'd like to give a special thanks to a Hefner and a Kalini who reviewed this episode.
