Melissa: 00:00

Okay, Jam. Today, we're gonna talk about the chemistry of cinnamon. Ah. Cinnamon, my favorite.

Jam: 00:08

Nice. Do you

Melissa: 00:09

even know what a cinnamon stick is?

Jam: 00:12

Is it bark?

Melissa: 00:14

Yes. I thought you might know that. Dang.

Jam: 00:16

I just I've, like, Handled them and thought, this seems like a piece of bark.

Melissa: 00:21

It does. They're, like, literally sticks. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about what they are, where they come From why do they remind us of fall winter times.

Jam: 00:29

Okay.

Melissa: 00:29

And, also, they have something to do with mosquitoes, and maybe they're a miracle drug. So

Jam: 00:34

Interesting. Okay.

Melissa: 00:35

We're gonna be all over it.

Jam: 00:36

I'm into it.

Melissa: 00:37

Alright. Let's go.

Jam: 00:38

Let's do it.

Melissa: 00:49

Hey. I'm Melissa.

Jam: 00:50

I'm Jam.

Melissa: 00:51

And I'm a chemist. And I'm not. And welcome to chemistry for your life.

Jam: 00:55

The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.

Melissa: 00:58

And it's Christmas.

Jam: 01:00

Yay. I mean, not exactly.

Melissa: 01:01

I think we're a few days early, but, we're ahead, so it's not even Thanksgiving for us yet.

Jam: 01:06

That's right.

Melissa: 01:07

So this is exciting. Yeah.

Jam: 01:09

And cinnamon's sort of a spice for this whole time, this whole season.

Melissa: 01:16

Do you know why? No. You don't? You'll think of a guess.

Jam: 01:23

I was thinking, like, technically, it's not. Like, Like, I eat things that have cinnamon on them all the time, I guess. So

Melissa: 01:29

Well, we're gonna talk about it. At least I can get you that even though you got me with the cinnamon sticks.

Jam: 01:34

Nice.

Melissa: 01:34

Got me. Okay. So

Jam: 01:36

It was really a guess. I was like, I did not know that for sure. It was, like, the only thing

Melissa: 01:40

I have. Held my poker

Jam: 01:42

Face. Maybe we could've been like, maybe maybe it is.

Melissa: 01:44

Maybe. Kinda. Okay. So I love cinnamon candles. I they are, like, You know, my go to Christmas scent.

Melissa: 01:51

Some people, it's pine. But for me, it my mom always had a cinnamon candle, so they're, like, nostalgic.

Jam: 01:56

Yeah.

Melissa: 01:57

And, also, I just love cinnamon in general. Like, the coffee shop that I go to here that you don't really approve of

Jam: 02:03

You're right.

Melissa: 02:04

It always smells like cinnamon, And that's part of like, when I walk in, I'm like Mhmm. It's just a good smell.

Jam: 02:11

They do have good cinnamon rolls. It's just that the the coffee part of the coffee shop is important. You know? Yeah. But the cinnamon rolls some

Melissa: 02:17

of us.

Jam: 02:17

Cinnamon rolls are very good.

Melissa: 02:18

They are really good. And you could watch them use they used to have a different shop where they would, like, make the bagel or the cinnamon Rolls right in front of you. You could watch them through this little glass thing, and it was great. Yeah. Okay.

Melissa: 02:30

So but, you know, I love cinnamon, And it's it's cinnamon Christmastime, and I had a cinnamon candle in my room all day. And then I was like, what is that Smell. Uh-huh. And so the part the answer is partially exactly what I expected, and then the other part of it is surprising to

Jam: 02:49

me. Okay.

Melissa: 02:49

So this isn't gonna be your traditional chemistry lesson. I mean, there's, like, obviously chemistry woven throughout, but it's gonna be more of, like, the fun fact episode.

Jam: 02:57

Nice. And I

Melissa: 02:57

thought that'd be good because it's Christmas. You know, it's holiday season. Mhmm. We're all on break from school. Some of us might it might be cold outside.

Melissa: 03:05

You know? Yeah. So this we'll embrace the cozy vibes, And I'm just gonna imbue you with fun facts that and you, that then you can go take out into your Your cozy vibes time, and you can share with people, like, maybe over your cup of cinnamon tea or if you have some we had cinnamon rolls on Christmas morning growing up. You know? He'd be like, did you know?

Melissa: 03:27

And it'll be fun. So we're continuing the spread of fun science facts at holidays.

Jam: 03:31

Nice. Yes. Sun fun science fact cheer Yeah. For all to hear. You know?

Melissa: 03:40

That's cute. So let's go into this. So So the part that blew my mind that you already guessed is that it is literally basically a stick, a cinnamon stick.

Jam: 03:51

That's so weird.

Melissa: 03:52

It is weird. It's not that simple, though. They're part of a, there's a family of trees. Cina cinnam I'm not good at biology words. Cinnamomum is the genus, I believe.

Melissa: 04:05

And there's a few different varieties, and the the you may have heard like, have you ever heard people say, like, oh, this isn't real Cinnamon.

Jam: 04:13

Uh-uh.

Melissa: 04:14

Well, there's a variety. They all taste slightly different, but the variety from Sri Lanka is supposed to be, Like, the

Jam: 04:22

best.

Melissa: 04:23

So there's that. And then the other cinnamon, that we usually have that's, like, less rare, I guess, probably the what What you get when you just go to your grocery store like Kroger or whatever Mhmm. Is cassia cinnamon. There's Sri Lankan and cassia cinnamon. So they're different varieties.

Melissa: 04:39

And my brother said that one time, our mom got some of the, like, true, quote, unquote, Cinnamon from Sri Lanka. They're all they all have the same major compound, but it'd just be, like, the levels of that and other ones that slightly change the flavor. But he said it was so much more powerful and a little bit more oily and really, really good.

Jam: 05:00

Interesting.

Melissa: 05:01

So that's cool.

Jam: 05:02

That is cool. I would never have thought that.

Melissa: 05:05

Me neither. I didn't. I hadn't heard about that. Like, I've heard about the vanilla fake versus real.

Jam: 05:09

Right.

Melissa: 05:09

But I didn't know there's also a cinnamon conversation. But there was. I found some articles that I linked in where people were about that. We're at LinkedIn or show notes.

Jam: 05:15

Yeah. I think I've yeah. I heard the vanilla thing a lot before we talked about that. And, of course, I didn't know a lot, but I had heard that so many times. But don't know if I've ever heard somebody be like, oh, it's not real cinnamon or whatever.

Jam: 05:26

I think I'd probably be like, what?

Melissa: 05:28

It tastes good to me. Yeah. That's how I feel about vanilla Too. So it's a kind of it's a tree, but it's kinda like a bushier tree. And so, it looks like you know those ones that get the little Red buds all over them or pink buds all over them that are around here.

Jam: 05:43

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Melissa: 05:44

That they're like it's I'm making a little c with my hand for those of you listening. It's, like, about this big around. It's, like, some of the main stalks and branches. That's about the size that the branches Just need to go to to harvest cinnamon

Jam: 05:57

on there.

Melissa: 05:58

And what, they'll do is and I I linked a video in there in our show notes that's It's from Science India, and it just shows people harvesting. It's pretty cool.

Jam: 06:08

Oh, wow.

Melissa: 06:08

So they'll cut those branches and, like, any offshoots off of it. And then the outer layer of bark, they actually scrape off.

Jam: 06:16

So

Melissa: 06:16

that just gets scraped off in shavings, and those shavings might be wrapped in the next Slayer or maybe just discarded. But, then what they do is the next layer, they'll get brass rods and sort of massage it To make it loose, and then they cut, like, a ring around the tree a ring around the tree and, you know, then a line connecting it. So, basically, you can take it off in a sheet.

Jam: 06:38

I see.

Melissa: 06:39

Okay. Sense?

Jam: 06:40

Yes.

Melissa: 06:40

Visually? I don't know. For people who are listening, maybe that'd be a little confusing. But, basically, you just, like, cut a layer, You know, on either side and then a line connecting the 2 rings so that you basically you've un you can unsheathe the trait. And you have to be really careful.

Melissa: 06:57

And it seems like a really skilled trade that you have to develop in. But so it's really the Inner layer of bark that makes up the cinnamon that we know, the, like, sheets that are kinda rolled up.

Jam: 07:12

Interesting.

Melissa: 07:12

It's the inner layer, not the outer layer of bark, but it is basically bark. It's basically just part of a tree.

Jam: 07:17

Wow.

Melissa: 07:18

It just sticks.

Jam: 07:19

Weird.

Melissa: 07:20

Isn't that cool?

Jam: 07:22

So it's like can can they keep doing that? Or, like, I feel like a lot of trees if you mess with their bark, it's really pretty bad for the for it.

Melissa: 07:30

I don't know. I couldn't tell if it's like do you just cut off 1 branch?

Jam: 07:34

Mhmm.

Melissa: 07:34

And then another branch is still growing, and then you cut off that?

Jam: 07:37

And maybe you just avoid the trunk every way because that's probably the most important

Melissa: 07:42

Yeah.

Jam: 07:43

Long term.

Melissa: 07:43

I don't know if that's what it was or if they, they say it has to grow for 3 years before you could harvest it. So I'm like, do they just plant new ones and turn them over every 3 years? Yeah. I don't know.

Jam: 07:53

That's how coffee is too. It's like, it it really can't produce Something we could take from it and use for, like, 3 or 4 years or something like that. So you have to really plan ahead of that. That's crazy. Yeah.

Melissa: 08:05

And Stardew Valley takes a long time to grow coffee too. Dang. Not yours, I don't think so.

Jam: 08:11

Accurate. Yes.

Melissa: 08:12

That's cool. It's longer than the other crops, though.

Jam: 08:15

I Also feel like they're surprising that they even included it.

Melissa: 08:17

Yeah.

Jam: 08:18

It's like it's a crop that, like, wouldn't have been thought of.

Melissa: 08:20

Well, then you make your coffee drinks, and it's cute. You know? I exclusively play video games that are cute. So, otherwise, I don't think it's fun. So sorry.

Melissa: 08:31

I'm still got a little bit of Cough leftover from, when I was had a really down bad with a cold in the last 2 weeks, But I'm much better now. I still have that cough lingering. So that's how we get cinnamon sticks. You know, they roll them up and they let them dry, and then They turn into our little rolled up cinnamon sticks. So the thing that's mostly responsible though for our taste of cinnamon Within the 6 is an organic molecule.

Melissa: 09:04

Shocking.

Jam: 09:04

Mhmm.

Melissa: 09:05

So organic molecule means that it has a chemistry backbone. A carbon backbone in chemistry. Any, carbon based molecule or carbon containing molecule is, Organic chemistry. So it's an organic molecule. And you also may remember that we've talked about aromatic rings.

Melissa: 09:24

Do you remember those?

Jam: 09:26

I do. I do remember that. It's been a long time, but yes.

Melissa: 09:30

We talked about it in our vanilla episode for sure.

Jam: 09:33

Uh-huh.

Melissa: 09:34

And the idea is that the aromatic ring is, a lot of times, they have really good Smells associated with them, good aromas. So early on in, you know, organic chemistry as they're developing Discipline. They would isolate these compounds with really good aromas, and they noticed a lot of them have this similar ring structure, which is 6 carbons in a ring and alternating double bonds. Mhmm. And that is known as a benzene ring, which we've also talked about that a lot.

Melissa: 10:05

Mhmm. But because the benzene ring was present in a lot of these molecules that Had good smells like vanilla and cinnamon. The name aromatic ring just kind of stuck.

Jam: 10:14

But it

Melissa: 10:14

does have, like, a pretty distinct meaning within chemistry of, like, These are the features of an aromatic ring. It's not just that one.

Jam: 10:20

Got it.

Melissa: 10:20

But the name kind of just stuck together. So now Benzene is around in a lot of things, and it's an aromatic ring, but it doesn't always give a good aroma. Sometimes it can give a bad aroma. And sometimes it's just a part of something that's not really very Aromatic at all. So there's a benzene ring, and there's also another functional group on it Called an aldehyde, and we've talked about functional groups a lot too.

Jam: 10:46

Yes.

Melissa: 10:47

And they're just a collection of atoms that are arranged in, you know, a specific way that will function in a specific Right?

Jam: 10:53

Uh-huh.

Melissa: 10:54

And that one's called an aldehyde. So our cinnamon has an aldehyde, and that is the thing that Gives us the good flavor, cinnamaldehyde.

Jam: 11:05

Uh-huh. Cinnamonaldehyde.

Melissa: 11:06

That's the common name of this molecule. The Standard name is, you know, there's a whole IUPAC. We've talked about that before. That's the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry, And they have a whole systematic name, but that wouldn't mean, I think, to anybody but chemist. So but the common name is cinnamaldehyde.

Jam: 11:27

Cinnamaldehyde. That's weird because when you feel like that because of the aldehyde part. And, of course, the aldehyde, I think of as formaldehyde. Mhmm.

Melissa: 11:35

I'm like, oh, should

Jam: 11:36

we be eating this? Like, it just so seems kinda like I don't know.

Melissa: 11:41

I think that just goes to show, like, there's so much Fearmongering in in chemicals. Like Mhmm. It'd be really easy for someone to be like, cinnamon has an aldehyde, which is the same Group as there is in formaldehyde, and so it's dangerous to eat. But that's just not true, you know, but people will do that and take things out of context a lot. Yeah.

Jam: 12:02

So I'm glad that you pulled that out.

Melissa: 12:03

You're like, what? Aldehydes. I thought they were bad, but it's just like Yeah. No. That aldehyde is bad.

Jam: 12:07

Right. But I am correct in thinking I should not ingest formaldehyde probably. Right?

Melissa: 12:11

Right.

Jam: 12:11

Okay. Cool.

Melissa: 12:12

And I think also, is this right or is this wrong? I think I can't remember off the top of my head. When you ingest methanol Uh-huh. Instead of ethanol, I think it might break down into formaldehyde.

Jam: 12:25

Interesting. 100% sure, though. And I bet if I knew other aldehydes, it wouldn't seem like this universally bad thing. Right? Because I only know, 1, it's like,

Melissa: 12:36

Oh, no. Bad. Yeah. I think is vanilla an Aldehyde? Hang on.

Melissa: 12:40

Let me look up vanillin. If you're wondering what we're talking about, go listen to our episode on vanilla. Yeah. It is also an aldehyde. Okay.

Melissa: 12:47

We just don't call it vanilla aldehyde or

Jam: 12:50

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: 12:51

So there's lots of aldehydes around, and they do A lot of them do have standard smells. So cool. That's it.

Jam: 13:00

Dang.

Melissa: 13:01

That's not all your fun facts, though. That's just what gives The care characteristic cinnamon smell.

Jam: 13:06

That's crazy.

Melissa: 13:08

Okay. So that's your your main smell. Hang on. I lost my My page here in the notes. We're talking about aromatic rings.

Melissa: 13:16

That's the main okay. But it's not the only thing that's in cinnamon.

Jam: 13:20

Okay.

Melissa: 13:20

And this is my speculation about what makes the Sri Lankan cinnamon better than other cinnamons

Jam: 13:27

K.

Melissa: 13:28

Is that the variety and the amount of the different other molecules present would be different, and that would change the flavor experience. And we talked about that also with vanilla, that pure vanilla, quote, unquote, like, made from vanilla plant, the extract, Is actually not pure. It has a bunch of other stuff in it. They can give it a variety of flavors.

Jam: 13:51

Right.

Melissa: 13:52

Whereas vanilla artificial vanilla extract is actually just Mostly pure vanillin, just the one main compound that gives you the vanilla flavor, but it It kinda can fall flat to compared to the multi complex flavor of vanilla extracted from a plant because there's all this other stuff there.

Jam: 14:12

Right.

Melissa: 14:12

So similarly, in I'm guessing in these 2 different cinnamon plants, you would they're slightly different in flavor Likely because they both have cinnamaldehyde, so they're both real cinnamon, you know, if that's what we're looking for.

Jam: 14:27

Yeah.

Melissa: 14:27

But they would have different varieties of the other compounds that are Present.

Jam: 14:30

Got it.

Melissa: 14:31

Or different amounts of them. And so, but some of the names of things that are present, there's something called Eugenol, which is in cloves, and Carophyllene. These are also common names. It's also present in cloves. And pinene from pine trees, which we had a whole episode about last year

Jam: 14:47

when this time.

Melissa: 14:49

So there's lots of, other aromatic compounds and oils that will give it flavors, and then there's a bunch that I didn't

Jam: 14:55

Mhmm.

Melissa: 14:57

So that's what gives it its characteristic smell and flavor. There's the primary profile of the cinnamaldehyde that gives you a characteristic Cinnamon y flavor. But then that is added complexity with the other plants that or the other compounds present in the plant. Okay. And it is likely that this plant produces cinnamaldehyde as part of a way to protect itself.

Melissa: 15:23

Which means that it and many other spices has some antimicrobial properties. And are you ready for this big reveal?

Jam: 15:34

Yes.

Melissa: 15:35

That is why we associate it with Wintertime because when meat needed to be preserved before there's refrigerators, a lot of different spices like Ginger, clove, nutmeg, and cinnamon would be used to preserve meat because they had these antimicrobial properties, And that would protect it from bacteria. And so meat consumed in the wintertime often had those spices On it.

Jam: 16:03

Interesting.

Melissa: 16:04

And that's why we think of them as seasonal flavors.

Jam: 16:08

Wow. So it was like Those spices were available in the winter more?

Melissa: 16:13

I think they used them before the winter To preserve the meat, and then during the winter, you ate the meat that was preserved with those spices on it.

Jam: 16:22

Like So you would just hunt less or something?

Melissa: 16:24

I think so, because animals aren't as around in winter.

Jam: 16:27

Right. Right? Interesting.

Melissa: 16:30

So that's why.

Jam: 16:31

Yeah. And maybe yeah. Maybe there are some, but you're like, okay, I wanna have some Meat saved because it's gonna be it could be rough.

Melissa: 16:40

Yeah.

Jam: 16:40

You know? We could be snowed in or something like that. It's like Mhmm. Yeah. Interesting.

Jam: 16:46

Yeah. Wow. That's crazy.

Melissa: 16:48

But now we don't have to preserve meat like that.

Jam: 16:50

Right.

Melissa: 16:50

But we still associate those flavors with The fall and winter seasons.

Jam: 16:56

Yeah. That's crazy. It's interesting too because it's like it really makes you makes you wonder, like, why do we associate Any flavors with any time at all, period. You know? And it probably has all stuff like that.

Melissa: 17:09

Yeah. Or seasonally, like, I think lemons Grow in the summer.

Jam: 17:13

Right. Right. When are they available? Exactly. Yeah.

Jam: 17:16

Stuff like that. But it is weird because there's nothing inherently Wintery. Mhmm. About cinnamon or nutmeg or whatever. But it's like But

Melissa: 17:27

there is now. But As we've decided. Yeah.

Jam: 17:30

We have made it so, and we keep handing down that association

Melissa: 17:34

Mhmm.

Jam: 17:34

To each new generation.

Melissa: 17:36

Like my mom's candle.

Jam: 17:37

Right. Even though none of us Have actually that tied to the real reason anymore. Wow.

Melissa: 17:45

Yeah. And, like, for me, you know, I go to that coffee shop Year round. It smells like cinnamon, and I love it year round. But I don't ever light a cinnamon candle unless it's Yeah. Unless it's Christmas time.

Melissa: 17:56

You know?

Jam: 17:56

Mhmm.

Melissa: 17:57

So, Anyway, I thought that was a fun little tidbit.

Jam: 18:00

That's really cool.

Melissa: 18:01

Isn't it? I wonder

Jam: 18:02

what that meat tasted like. I wonder if it was, like, weird.

Melissa: 18:04

Well, I also wondered about, like Okay. So that's, like, our history of it in our western culture, but or native populations using it in these certain ways too. I mean, that I'd be really curious about that. I mean, it's native to Sri Lanka, so, you know, I think it's a tradition there. So how did they did they also preserve meat

Jam: 18:24

Yeah. Right.

Melissa: 18:25

Before it got moved over into the western countries. I don't know. And I couldn't find a lot of information about that from sources that I'd be like, yeah. Definitely, I'm You know? Mhmm.

Melissa: 18:34

So that, I didn't really have as much information about that. But maybe if we have I know we have listeners in India and Sri Lanka. So If you have any insight, we'd love to hear it. Yeah. That'd be really cool.

Melissa: 18:47

So this is now that we're talking about westernizing things, This this, preserving it and it being antimicrobial is now being incorporated into western medicine. I think we talked about this when we did the, peppermint episode. Yeah. But, peppermint and cinnamon both Have been used in treating bacterial plaques. So I'm just gonna read this quote from the a press release from the American Chemical Society.

Melissa: 19:19

Many bacteria clump together in sticky plaques in a way that make them difficult to eliminate with traditional antibiotics. Doctors sometimes recommend cutting out infected tissue, but that can be costly and it's invasive.

Jam: 19:34

Mhmm.

Melissa: 19:35

So essential oils and other natural compounds have recently emerged as alternative substances that fight pathogenic bacteria. Researchers have had a hard time translating that into treatments, but recently, some researchers, I want their names are Rotello. It says Rotello and colleagues. So, they tried to package peppermint oil and cinnamaldehyde In, silicon nanoparticles, so just kind of a different delivery method. Mhmm.

Melissa: 20:06

And it worked. It killed 4 different types of bacteria, Including 1 antibiotic resistance strain. Wow. And it seems to also promote the growth of Cells that are important in wound healing fibroblasts.

Jam: 20:20

Mhmm.

Melissa: 20:21

And there was a study that came out in 2020 that indicated that Cinnamon and other plants might be used, to fight COVID nineteen because, you know, it has that spike. Okay. Inhibit the spike. Interesting. I don't understand how because that's beyond my pay grade, but super interesting.

Jam: 20:39

Weird.

Melissa: 20:40

And last but not least, Cinnamon has been used as a mosquito repellent. It repels adult mosquitoes and mosquito larvae. Nice. Ties back into our Edo saga.

Jam: 20:53

Yes. That's very surprising.

Melissa: 20:54

I know.

Jam: 20:55

I would not have expected that about any of it, honestly. No. So it's like okay. So In order to try to find some some some positive results of note, they had to to come up with a new delivery system for it. Yes.

Jam: 21:10

So it seems like they knew this is possible, and it has a my antimicrobial Mhmm. Kind of quality to it. Mhmm. But That didn't seem sort of dependable just in, like, a, here, put some on your hand or something like that.

Melissa: 21:24

Yeah. I was wondering if maybe it was hard to concentrate it down enough, but then it'd be because, I mean, you don't wanna put straight a 100% pure of something that could be a skin irritant on a wound. Right. So I wondered if, like, oh, we tried to do it in a pure oil of cinnamaldehyde, and that would, like, cause skin irritation or burns.

Jam: 21:46

Yeah.

Melissa: 21:47

Or, like, We can't put cinnamon powder on. That's, like, not gonna be hygienic. Or, you know, I wonder if they went through some processes until they Identify like, oh, this is a consistent way we can apply that won't as, like, necrosis or anything bad to the tissue. That was my guess. Yeah.

Melissa: 22:04

That's a chemistry off the cuff.

Jam: 22:06

Off the cuff. Interesting. Very interesting.

Melissa: 22:09

And I just I think it goes back to a lot of the Stuff we've talked about before, like when we learned about rubber and when we learned about lavender and when we learned about natural mosquito repellents. It's like Indigenous cultures have known things, you know, that we didn't know.

Jam: 22:28

Yeah. And the

Melissa: 22:29

science is just catching up.

Jam: 22:30

Yeah. They had a suspicion That hey. This seems like it works in these scenarios or whatever. And yeah. I mean, obviously, who knows how many things of those Have turned out to be true and not true, but it's cool when it does.

Melissa: 22:42

Yeah. And I think it happens a lot that it turns out to be true. And then we also Talked about that episode of Radiolab where they took a really old I don't know if you remember this, but they took a it was 2 History nerds and also microbiologists, and they took a really old, like, medicine man's book or something. Uh-huh. And they concocted the thing that it said, and it did kill bacteria.

Jam: 23:04

That's crazy.

Melissa: 23:05

I know. So I think they they just were a sign it's a different scientific process of finding what worked in nature and using that.

Jam: 23:12

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And also, like, tons of experimenting with what they had. Right?

Jam: 23:16

They've probably tried a bunch of things. It was like, oh, it didn't seem to work. Let's try this.

Melissa: 23:19

So we'll try something different. Yeah.

Jam: 23:21

Totally. That's crazy.

Melissa: 23:23

Western science to just try and catch up.

Jam: 23:25

Yeah. And, you know, purify and make consistent and stuff like that. Yeah. Because it's like It could be like, yeah. This leaf looks like this, and if you do it like this, then it works sometimes.

Jam: 23:35

You know? Yeah. Or it's like, how much water did you put in there? Or, like, how much of the leaf? It's like, well, we didn't have Measurements.

Jam: 23:42

So it was, like, 3 leaves.

Melissa: 23:44

Yeah. We just consistently did this. Yeah. Yeah. That's like somebody was baking.

Melissa: 23:50

So we recently went to a wedding, our friend's wedding, and the chocolate chip cookies they had at the dessert table were amazing.

Jam: 23:56

Yep. And

Melissa: 23:57

I was like, I gotta get this recipe. And I went over and asked, and she's like, oh, it's just Nesli's recipe. And I was like, I gotta watch you Make those cookies because I know you think it's just Nestle's recipe. Mhmm. But you do things that you probably don't realize that You do.

Melissa: 24:14

Like Yeah. The temperature of the butter, you probably have it the same every time, and that would affect the final cookie or, like, The order in which you add the ingredients might be different.

Jam: 24:23

Or, like Especially, like, the baking soda or baking powder like that. What what stage that's put in there, obviously, is

Melissa: 24:28

gonna be in there. Eggs, like, if you over The eggs, it can change the proteins in that too. And, like, is your oven actually at what you think it's at? Because our last oven was 50 degrees hot, And our new oven is 50 degrees cold. You know?

Melissa: 24:41

So I'm like, I gotta know. I wanna watch you

Jam: 24:46

Yeah. And

Melissa: 24:46

capture it so that I can reproduce it. Or just yeah. They're like, similarly with, like, native cultures. It's like, oh, native medicines. Let's Yeah.

Melissa: 24:54

Let's watch what they did and try to capture it and reproduce it.

Jam: 24:57

Yeah. And, like, Having the tools now to to be able to measure things in a way that's consistent and, like, replicate things, that is a huge advantage.

Melissa: 25:08

Yeah. It's like take the good, the use your powers together

Jam: 25:11

for good. Yes.

Melissa: 25:12

What is that? It's a synergistic. Mhmm. It's like, oh, western medicine is really good Standardizing and mass producing and, like, you know, that kind of stuff.

Jam: 25:23

And investigating why.

Melissa: 25:27

It. Yeah. And then indigenous cultures have all this, like, traditional knowledge, and let's let them work together.

Jam: 25:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: 25:32

Yeah. There's a really cool book about that called braiding sweet grass if anyone wants check it out. Oh, yeah. You talked about it. A PhD biologist and also she's native, and she talks about, like she sees the science And the Yeah.

Melissa: 25:45

Indigenous knowledge working together all the time. It's really cool.

Jam: 25:48

That's cool.

Melissa: 25:49

So that was my, that's a fun little foray into cinnamon. So when you're cozy up on the couch with your cinnamon tea or I like to add a little cinnamon actually into my hot chocolate. And there is also there there's a lot of stuff I didn't talk about, but one thing that I learned is also it could work in the fight against Alzheimer's. There's some things about that.

Jam: 26:12

Nice.

Melissa: 26:12

Like, it inhibits the growth of some certain type of cell. So, you know, put a little in your smoothie, put a little in your hot Chocolate. Just put a little dash wherever, and then think about all of the amazing properties of cinnamon.

Jam: 26:25

That's crazy. And think about how it's like bark.

Melissa: 26:30

That's crate the fact that it's like bark.

Jam: 26:32

Yeah. Think about how, like I'm like, I'm putting a stick in my, Hot chocolate.

Melissa: 26:36

And then drinking it. Yeah. Yeah. And then kind of ground up stick.

Jam: 26:40

Yeah. It's

Melissa: 26:42

like everything that we kind of ingest is basically just I used to make photoviques. I'm like, oh, it's just dirty water.

Jam: 26:48

Yeah. It's like Leaves.

Melissa: 26:49

Everything we eat is just, like, dirties.

Jam: 26:52

It's like mhmm. Leaves. Mhmm.

Melissa: 26:54

Sticks. Leaves. Mm-mm. Sticks.

Jam: 26:56

Oh, it's not it's cinnamon tea. It's like well, like, I don't have sticks with my leaves on my water.

Melissa: 27:05

Yeah. So and what is isn't chocolate's fermented beans. Right?

Jam: 27:11

Oh, yeah. Oh, so I think it's a seed, isn't it?

Melissa: 27:13

I can't remember. That was so long ago that we did that. So, seeds fermented with sticks ground up in my Hot water.

Jam: 27:21

Mhmm.

Melissa: 27:22

Sounds a lot less appetizing.

Jam: 27:23

Yeah. Seeds and leaves and sticks and hot water.

Melissa: 27:27

Yeah. Well, definitely, I have and nuts So that's it. That's your fun, cinnamon facts.

Jam: 27:41

Wow. That's awesome.

Melissa: 27:42

Yeah.

Jam: 27:42

I had no idea.

Melissa: 27:43

Me neither.

Jam: 27:45

I mean, like, other than just the visually, it looks like a stick. It was like I had no idea where it came from.

Melissa: 27:51

Yeah. Or what made it smell good?

Jam: 27:53

Nope. Nothing. Didn't know anything.

Melissa: 27:54

That there was fake, quote, unquote, and real, unquote cinnamon.

Jam: 27:57

And I would have not guessed that it had any benefit whatsoever.

Melissa: 28:01

I think a lot of things, like, a lot of things that are very aromatic are also antioxidants because they have that ability. If you wanna go learn about antioxidants, we have an episode about that, but we they do have an ability to capture True. Free radicals, which are real. People talk about those a lot, and they use it to, like, kinda be woo woo and

Jam: 28:21

Yeah.

Melissa: 28:22

Do chemical fear mongering, but they're real. And so A lot of different natural things have those aromatic rings, which are really good for you. Yeah. As long as it's not just straight Benzene, then that's It's bad.

Jam: 28:34

Right.

Melissa: 28:35

It's it's a lot to think about. But natural products in a lot of ways, like, have really good things. And, you know, they talk about having a lot of different color on your plate and

Jam: 28:45

Yeah.

Melissa: 28:45

A lot of different aromas now. Add that in.

Jam: 28:48

It's also one of those words people use just like the word chemical, which is like, It's natural. I was like, woah.

Melissa: 28:52

I know. Yeah.

Jam: 28:53

It's all natural, honestly.

Melissa: 28:54

Products means a specific thing in chemistry.

Jam: 28:57

Right. But it doesn't mean that For consumer. Yeah. It's like

Melissa: 29:00

Neither just organic. Yeah. Yeah. So when I say natural products, that's usually what I'm thinking of. Yeah.

Jam: 29:05

It's like nothing means anything anymore. I heard people be like, why is this thing more why is this thing more natural? I'm like, woah. Like, you used that before. It's like, well, arsenic is

Melissa: 29:12

Is natural.

Jam: 29:13

It's a natural. It's an element. It's not as Basic of a building block of chemistry as it gets, and yet it's bad for us.

Melissa: 29:20

In chemistry, this is a good thing for you to bring up because I didn't really distinguish that. Natural product synthesis is a branch of organic chemistry, and it's it aims to I'm reading straight from Nature, the A peer reviewed journal. Mhmm. It aims to prepare a complex target molecule such that the product is analytically identical To a naturally occurring compound. So when I think of natural products, I think of that.

Melissa: 29:47

It's like, oh, we have an organic molecule of some kind that we're trying to Matchup. Yeah. I didn't even realize that I was doing that. Yeah. That's why it's good to have a have a expert and a nonexpert.

Jam: 29:59

Yep. Have someone who's not a doesn't know. I'm like natural. Doesn't mean the person who sold it to me is wearing sandals. That's kinda like

Melissa: 30:06

But you're You're right. I wouldn't never say, like, oh, arsenic is a natural product because it's like, oh, I have a specific category of natural product

Jam: 30:13

in my mind.

Melissa: 30:14

It's an organic molecule that Is, like, is often very complex that we're trying to mimic.

Jam: 30:20

Yes. Right. Right.

Melissa: 30:22

Wow. Good catch. Now now we now we know.

Jam: 30:26

Now we know? I was thinking about because you said something about the chemical fear mongering thing, and then you said we're natural. I was like, oh, that's almost exactly the same thing.

Melissa: 30:32

Yeah.

Jam: 30:32

And just the other way. You know? But Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: 30:35

People do that. They'll fearmonger. I have seen that. They're, like, use chemicals as fearmongering, but they don't explicitly say, like, toxic chemicals, or they'll Do the thing where it's like formaldehyde and cinnamon aldehyde are the same, so you shouldn't eat it. But then they do do the other thing what sometimes I've heard it called greenwashing where they'll say, like, Oh, this is natural, so that automatically means it's good.

Melissa: 30:56

Mhmm. And there is not regulation on that, much like there's not regulation on, you know, what a chemical is.

Jam: 31:01

Yeah.

Melissa: 31:01

But then within chemistry, you know, like, organic has a very specific meaning. It's carbon based, and natural products mean Oh, where I'd in within chemistry, we're trying to find you know, we have a natural product, and oftentimes, we're trying to synthesize to match up

Jam: 31:17

Yeah.

Melissa: 31:17

Like a whole branch.

Jam: 31:19

Yeah. Interesting.

Melissa: 31:20

Yeah. But it is it is hard, like, when you're on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook, and people are sharing just all kinds of, like This is natural, so it's automatically good. And that really is not true. And even, like, I was talking about with cinnamaldehyde, in its pure form, if you just put Pure cinnamaldehyde on your skin is an irritant. Like, lots of essential oils are irritants.

Melissa: 31:47

Mhmm. You don't want them Concentrated down to a 100% pure that thing.

Jam: 31:53

Right.

Melissa: 31:54

And then put it on your body. That can be really dangerous, and some people are allergic to it. You know? It's like, there's just not, like, a Natural equals better.

Jam: 32:01

Yeah.

Melissa: 32:01

But a lot of natural products, meaning they are organic products that occur in nature, have aromatic Rings and high conjugation, which can be really good for antioxidants.

Jam: 32:14

And that might not always be better, but it is does sound Cooler. And that's what most of us are out looking for. We wanna look and sound cooler.

Melissa: 32:22

So Yeah. That's why I'm wearing my Snoopy Christmas sweater. It's because I wanna be cool. Yeah. Anyways, so I don't know what Joe Cool is.

Jam: 32:32

It's like one of his outfits, one of Snoopy's outfits. Oh. Like, when he has a sunglasses on, he has, like, a it's, like, kind of one of his characters. I don't know.

Melissa: 32:41

I didn't watch any Snoopy except for the Christmas Snoopy.

Jam: 32:44

Oh, nice. It's a really cool one of Vince Guaraldi's, like, you know, bits of score that he wrote for various, You know, Peanuts specials. It's called Jocool. It's a great one. It's a really I like that one a lot.

Melissa: 33:00

That's cool.

Jam: 33:01

It's, like, not a really recognizable theme, but he's like I was like, this is cool. Like, he just wrote this, like

Melissa: 33:05

Joe Cool.

Jam: 33:06

He, like, kind of embodied that Joe Cool vibe into this little track.

Melissa: 33:09

I I love, the peanuts Christmas, the Charlie Brown Christmas.

Jam: 33:14

Yeah.

Melissa: 33:14

But that's, like, the extent of it. And there's those twin those twins that go like this.

Jam: 33:18

Mhmm. Yes.

Melissa: 33:20

I love that. My favorite.

Jam: 33:21

I love it.

Melissa: 33:22

Alright. Well, normally, we would wrap it up with a happy thing, but do you wanna share a fun, Christmas Tradition or thought

Jam: 33:30

or

Melissa: 33:30

where you're gonna be on Christmas this year.

Jam: 33:34

I don't know where I'm gonna be, But this goes out, I will hopefully know where I'm gonna be.

Melissa: 33:40

Wow. You're living on the edge a month ahead, and you don't know.

Jam: 33:43

Yeah. I mean, we got, you know, things up in the air. But the, tradition well, I thought we recently talked about some traditions.

Melissa: 33:53

We did on a bonus So yeah.

Jam: 33:54

That's right. Okay. Gotta keep that secret then.

Melissa: 34:01

We're gonna share a happy thing.

Jam: 34:03

Would you oh, you go first. Do you have something already?

Melissa: 34:06

Yeah. I was thinking, so this I have to be kind of vague.

Jam: 34:10

Okay.

Melissa: 34:11

This isn't Christmassy thing. I just this is just a regular thing, so I'll share that. Right. So, and you can send me your Christmas well wishes. I'm working on a collaboration, Which you already know some of this, but I'm working on a collaboration in my, like, research side of my life.

Melissa: 34:26

Uh-huh. And because of that research collaboration, I've had to work at reach out to real life podcasters that I actually listen to.

Jam: 34:36

Oh, yeah.

Melissa: 34:37

And that I Some of whom inspired me to start this podcast. Mhmm. And every single one that I've emailed has gotten back to me and has been really nice. Nice. And is really excited about the project that I'm talking about working on with them.

Melissa: 34:52

Uh-huh. And it just feels really Cool that they're it's tangentially related to this podcast. So it's like they're excited about the work that we're doing, and they've all been so kind. And I sent those emails off like, this is never gonna work. And everyone responded.

Melissa: 35:10

It was so nice. And so that was kind of a really That's been a fun thing that's been transpiring in my research work life

Jam: 35:17

behind the scenes. Yeah. That's cool.

Melissa: 35:20

So that's been fun. And then this year for Christmas, we're going to drive to my sister's house, which is, like, kind of out in the middle of the woods, so that's kind of nice. And then, We're going to Amarillo from there. And last year, we drove straight through.

Jam: 35:36

Yeah. Y'all did.

Melissa: 35:37

And it was miserable, so we're gonna take a daybreak.

Jam: 35:39

Nice. That's a great idea.

Melissa: 35:41

So that's our we'll have a little, like, decompress, be at home, do your laundry, unpack, repack.

Jam: 35:46

Mhmm.

Melissa: 35:47

Get the 2nd set of Whatever gifts or what like snacks or whatever you're gonna bring to that side of the family and them.

Jam: 35:53

Yeah. Nice. That's a great idea. Lesson learned. Yeah.

Jam: 35:57

We know I talked about doing that. I was like, man, that sounds exhausting.

Melissa: 36:00

Yeah. It's a long it's like a 20 hour drive, I

Jam: 36:03

think. Man.

Melissa: 36:04

Because it was 5 hours to Amarillo and then, like well, I guess, so it'd be 15 because it's, like, 9 or 10 too. Mississippi.

Jam: 36:15

Yeah. Interesting.

Melissa: 36:16

Yeah. It's a long drive.

Jam: 36:18

I thought of 1. Okay. Let's hear. One little, sort of tradition kind of thing is I you know, I I like Christmas music, but Someone who is not good. So what happened about you know, I don't know.

Jam: 36:37

At this point, it's been, like, 13 years ago or something like that. One of my favorite musicians, Sufjan Stevens.

Melissa: 36:44

Yes. Shout out.

Jam: 36:45

Good old, Sufjan.

Melissa: 36:46

If you wanna hear more, go on our Oh, yeah? Subscribe subscribe to a podcast where on our secret episodes, Jam talks all about it.

Jam: 36:55

So here's a little a little anecdote is that, so he has 2 different collections of Christmas stuff he's come out with.

Melissa: 37:03

Really?

Jam: 37:03

Which means total, that's 100 songs of Christmas stuff he has had, put out in the world.

Melissa: 37:09

Some Some

Jam: 37:10

of them are, like, little ditties, you know, like, not a full on song or whatever. But, so when he got this 2nd collection of Christmas stuff back in 2012, I wanted to say that was, Me and our friend, Sean

Melissa: 37:21

Mhmm.

Jam: 37:22

Went to a a show, Christmas sing along of that. One of the most fun shows I've ever been to.

Melissa: 37:37

That sounds so cool.

Jam: 37:38

And, get to, you know, hear all those songs live and stuff like that, which is really fun. He has a mixture of, like, you know, Covers of traditional ones and writing his own

Melissa: 37:46

Mhmm.

Jam: 37:47

And stuff. And we got to meet Sufjan afterward and talk to him for a while.

Melissa: 37:51

Was he nice?

Jam: 37:52

Yes. Very nice. I have a picture with him.

Melissa: 37:53

Nice.

Jam: 37:54

And, it was it was awesome. So I love listening to those songs every year.

Melissa: 38:00

Yeah.

Jam: 38:00

And I think a lot of Christmas stuff is like, you know, it's like, oh, somebody did another one of those of that song. It's like, wow. So original. But I love the 2 show ones because I'm so attached to them.

Melissa: 38:12

Yeah. So,

Jam: 38:12

you know, obviously, everybody's got that for certain songs for them. So I I not knocking that at all. Sometimes it's like, Guess who came out with a new version of this? It's like, great. You know?

Jam: 38:22

Like, the the artist of the of the time of that season Yeah. For this little bit in their 15 minutes, they did a version of whatever song.

Melissa: 38:32

For Christmas. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Jam: 38:35

So I'm not, in the general sense, super into all Christmas music, and it does get a little old at all the stores and stuff. And you're like, oh, gosh. Like, Every story you go

Melissa: 38:46

Samaria Carey. Yeah.

Jam: 38:48

Every story you go to is, like, oh, full plan this one. Carrie? Yeah. But I love the ones. So I like breaking that out.

Jam: 38:54

Listen to those. Super fun.

Melissa: 38:57

I put on Christmas music when I decorated my tree, but I don't think I've heard any Christmas music since

Jam: 39:01

Really?

Melissa: 39:02

Yeah. Maybe because I'm just at home most of the time working from home.

Jam: 39:05

And I guess they don't really I'm thinking about it. I think of 1 store I've been to that That has been playing some. But I don't I think a lot of places haven't started yet. So Yeah. They might wait until next week, but I don't know.

Melissa: 39:18

My go to Christmas albums are, a long time ago, I got my mom at the Charlie Brown Christmas soundtrack.

Jam: 39:25

Yes.

Melissa: 39:25

And so it's, like, mostly instrumental, but still Christmassy and nostalgic, and I really like that.

Jam: 39:31

Mhmm.

Melissa: 39:31

And then another one that I listen to a lot is, like, My mom loved Bing Crosby, so I'll do that old style of, like, you know, Old it's sort of like old timey vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Those are probably my 2 go to Christmas albums.

Jam: 39:48

Yeah. Some of the, like, old kinda crooner Ones are really cool.

Melissa: 39:52

Yeah.

Jam: 39:52

And those don't really ever get old in a sense because they they kind of have always been old.

Melissa: 39:57

You know? Classic. Yeah. Yeah. They've always been old till you just, like, listen to this this old guy singing White Christmas one more time.

Jam: 40:04

Yeah. Yeah. And then so many movies and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Jam: 40:10

Anyway

Melissa: 40:11

So those are mine. That was fun.

Jam: 40:13

Nice. Yeah.

Melissa: 40:14

Great. Well, thanks for coming and hanging out with us on your holiday break, and, I hope you all have a great New year and will we see you before that? I don't think we will. It would be out with a new episode in the new year, and you'll have a rerelease in between that.

Jam: 40:31

That's right. That's right. Yep. Great. And thank you guys for your questions and ideas.

Jam: 40:36

Always the best. And if you have a thought, a question, something you've wondered about, like, is this chemistry? Reach out to us on our website atkemforyourlife.com. That's kem, f o r, your life.com to share your thoughts And ideas ideas with us. If you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, you could do it on our super cool CheMmunity of patrons and supporters On patreon.com/chemforyourlife.

Jam: 41:02

That's patreon.com/chem for your life.

Melissa: 41:04

And then you get secret content that's not chemistry?

Jam: 41:07

Secret podcast, you get depending on your the tier you pick, you get a sweet little note from us. You get some behind the scenes stuff. You get to join our do our monthly coffee hour. It's pretty cool. If you can't do that though, you can still help us by subscribing in your favorite podcast app, rating, writing, review on Apple Podcasts, subscribing on YouTube, And say a little comment on one of the videos saying hi.

Jam: 41:29

Yeah. Those things help us share chemistry with even more people, so we appreciate that. And we'd love for you to do those things.

Melissa: 41:35

This episode of chemistry free life was created by Melissa Colini and Jame Robinson. Jame Robinson is our producer, and this episode was made possible by our financial supporters on Patreon Who enjoy all those benefits and who wanna make chemistry accessible to even more people. And those supporters are Avishai Shai b, Brie m, Brian k, Chris and Claire s. Shout out. Chris is almost his birthday.

Melissa: 42:00

Chelsea b, Derek l, Emerson w, Hunter r, Jacob t, Christina g, Katrina h, Latila s, Lynn s, Melissa p, Nicole c, Rachel r, Sarah m, Steven b, Shadow, Suzanne p, Timothy p, and Venus r. Thank you again for everything you do to make chemistry for your life happen. And an extra special thanks to Bree who often creates illustrations to go along with episodes to chemistry for your life. And you can see, her website on our show notes, and you can follow her on Twitter to support her and thank her for that. And if you

Jam: 42:35

like to learn more about today's chemistry lesson, you can check out the references for this episode in our show notes or in the description of the video on YouTube.

Melissa: 42:44

Day chemistry.

Jam: 42:45

Day chemistry.