What do catalytic converters do?
Hey. I'm Melissa.
Jam:I'm Jam.
Melissa:And I'm a chemist.
Jam:And I'm not.
Melissa:And welcome to Chemistry For Your Life.
Jam:The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life. And if it's one of your first times listening to our podcast, when we say that Melissa is a chemist, she very much really, truly, actually is a chemist.
Melissa:Wild.
Jam:She got her PhD and also a master's. So
Melissa:It's true.
Jam:That's kind of that's sort of Academics speak first. She knows what she's talking about.
Melissa:For so long, we're like, she has a master's and also working on a PhD. Yeah. And now we're here.
Jam:Yeah. And now we're here. And I don't have any of that stuff, and I'm definitely not a chemist. And I'm just a learner like you guys.
Melissa:But he does have other skills.
Jam:Yeah. I bring some stuff to the table, but Definitely. For y'all's purpose, I'm like you.
Melissa:Yeah. And I do think you've learned a lot of chemistry As we learned on our 1 hundredth episode when we gave you a test
Jam:Oh, yes.
Melissa:You do you do know a lot of chemistry now. You've sort of been studying it in a casual way for 3 years. Yeah. So Yes. That was pretty impressive.
Jam:Yeah. It's it's more than I would have done if we weren't doing the podcast.
Melissa:That's Absolutely true. I just
Jam:don't think I wanna study this by chemistry. You know?
Melissa:Something else that I feel like we've talked about some, but we haven't talked about lately. But last episode, I found out something I didn't know that I felt like I should know, so this is a good chance to bring this back up
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:Is A lot of times we talk about the fact that I'm a chemist. I'm an expert. And I think it's easy to assume that means, so I must know everything, or I have All this knowledge of chemistry just at the tip of my fingers. And to some extent, that's true. I know a lot about chemistry, and I do have a lot of knowledge of chemistry right at the tip of my fingers, but I don't know everything.
Melissa:Mhmm. And what a lot of our episodes are is actually me taking something that I do know about the field of chemistry or about a chemical concept and then learning how it applies in a new situation. And so there will be times where I just Don't know or I might not get something exactly right. I get it to the best of my ability. And whenever that happens, we try to be really upfront, make the correction quickly, but, also, It's just a good thing of knowing that, really, experts more know how to get the information that they need, and they know a lot about what they don't know.
Melissa:Yeah. Right. But they're not just People who know everything right off the top of their head. That's not really that's never what we've tried to do here.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:I think that's always a good thing to revisit and remember. And if I ever do make a mistake or if anything ever comes up that we get feedback on, we always try to address it as quickly as possible. Yeah. And that is a mark of good science. If you get new information that's founded in evidence And you know that we need to revamp our thought process or our understanding of what's going on.
Melissa:That's good science. You want scientists to be always updating their information just like your phone system or your computer system.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Alright. Well, now that I redeemed myself for not knowing a 20 carbon chain, to be fair, I asked a friend of mine who also teaches OChem, and they didn't know Stop their head either.
Jam:Yeah. So it seems like it's the kind of thing that probably is not being asked of every chemist. No.
Melissa:They said, who needs to know that? Yeah. But Caibe did read in or write in about it, and I think maybe biochemists need to know about it more. So we'll probably share about that on the next q and
Jam:a half. Nice. Nice. That's cool.
Melissa:Okay. So let's hop into this week's episode, which is kind of a part 2. It's more of a stand alone, but a part 2 of last week's episode. So it's inspired by Julian E who asked how does the catalytic converter in a car's exhaust system work? So last week, we talked or 2 weeks ago, I guess, we talked all about gasoline and how gasoline makes your car go.
Melissa:And then now we're gonna talk about what happens after the gasoline is burned to the gas that's emitted after that.
Jam:Okay. So
Melissa:a very, very simple way to answer the question of what a catalytic converter does, not how it works, but what does it do, is I think of it like an air filter to reduce pollution.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Did you know that already? No. I didn't know either. I didn't really know what catalytic converter was for I had suspected that it was some kind of chemistry reaction based on the cat the catalyst.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:But I didn't know what its purpose was at all.
Jam:Yeah. And I've heard it just talked about as, like, only in the context of an everyday person needing to know it where it's like, Oh, so and so's car got all messed up. They had to pay a lot of money to get this done, and one of the things that needed to be fixed was a catalytic converter or something like that.
Melissa:Just Yes.
Jam:I've just known I've absorbed the the knowledge that it's important for the car and that it's yeah. That's all I've got.
Melissa:So, yeah, it's important for the car. And a lot of times, it actually gets stolen rather than even getting messed up Uh-huh. Because there's some precious metals inside of that Okay. That people are trying to reuse for other things. But really, yeah, all it does and in some ways, it's not really essential to the functioning of the car itself As far as I understand it, but it is required to be in the car.
Melissa:So if it gets stolen, you do have to replace it.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:But all it does is take the gases that would be emitted after the combustion reaction of your gasoline and sort of filter them to make sure that there's not a lot of pollution getting out to significantly minimize that pollution.
Jam:Okay. That's cool.
Melissa:And it yes. It is cool because gases are some gases are really bad for us to breathe in.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So pollution can contribute to asthma, lung cancer, and and other respiratory diseases. We don't know a ton about the long term effects of pollution, so I'm sure there's other stuff we don't even know about yet. And they also can contribute to climate change.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And as much as we love talking about climate change, and we have talked about it before, I would love to have doctor Colleen the other. Doctor Colleen back on to talk about how greenhouse gases impact climate change.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:But we're not gonna talk about it today, just that there are gases that are not good to let out into the environment.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And the government has that. And I think that's actually part of why in Texas we have an emissions inspection.
Jam:Yes. Yeah.
Melissa:Part of our annual inspection.
Jam:Some states do not have that and don't even have any nose inspections at all.
Melissa:Yes. And I was trying to figure this out, and I couldn't quite. But I know the FDA put a Clean Air Act. And I think in that Clean Air Act, they require catalytic converters to be in cars, But I don't think all states have the annual inspection. So maybe when they're produced, they check-in.
Jam:Right. Right. Yeah. Maybe it's like beef when it's for it to be sold or something like that. Yes.
Jam:But yeah. I know in Indiana where my wife is from, they don't have any inspections at all. Mhmm.
Melissa:It
Jam:was kinda crazy. It's like, Yeah. You'll see some cars on the road that you're like, that would not pass
Melissa:down here. That should not be driving down the road. But So I'm thankful actually that we have that inspection because it helps to make sure, you know, that there's the minimal the the I guess that the Air filter, quote, unquote, is still functioning.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:Yeah. And we're minimally contributing to climate change. It'd be nice if it was, like, Free though or something? That's true.
Jam:That's true.
Melissa:It's always such a headache because it's like you gotta get your insurance, and then you gotta go Get the inspection done, and it costs however much money, and I'm always late. I always forget about it. It's, like, very chaotic.
Jam:Yeah. It definitely is.
Melissa:Or if you could just do a quick drive through, and they'd be like, check, check, you're done. And then and that's it. You don't have to go through all the other steps Yeah. And you just get the sticker right then.
Jam:Yeah. That'd be nice.
Melissa:So anyway but I'm thankful that they want our air to be clean. I think that's important. So shout out to the government for that.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So But one thing that I think is important to realize is that there really shouldn't be those bad gases coming out of the car in the 1st place if you think about it theoretically.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Because we have hydrocarbons, which is just carbon and hydrogen. And in theory, it's reacting with pure oxygen. And that should just be giving us c o two and h two o.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And both of those are okay to be in the environment. You know, we breathe out c o two. Plants breathe in c o two.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:That should be fine. And water, you know, water vapor is just water, so that should be fine. So what's going on with that?
Jam:Yeah. What is going on with that?
Melissa:What is going on with that?
Jam:Now that I now that you've said that, and now that I am like, Oh, that doesn't make any sense. So what how's bad stuff get in there?
Melissa:Well, this is a classic organic chemist problem because On paper and what we learn in school, we have talked about this a little bit before, but we think of it as a plus b is gonna yield to c. You know, that's like the a plus and there's an arrow, and it gives us c. And the way it's written sort of is all c, nothing but c. It's just c. Uh-huh.
Melissa:But in real life, it's like a plus b reacts to give us c, and then some c might react with some a to give us something else, and some c might react with b too if there's any leftover. And then 2 a's could react with 1 b and all kinds of other little side products happen.
Jam:Uh-huh.
Melissa:And so, really, when I was in the organic chemistry lab, I felt like I got a plus b with mostly c and then also d, e, f, g. And you had to do all these purification techniques to isolate The big product that you really wanted.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And that's also why it's not really super safe. I don't know how many of our listeners are doing drugs, but it's not super safe to buy meth that's made on the street because or other drugs, but I've heard about it most with meth is because you're going to get side products, and only chemists who are really good at their jobs can really isolate late so you only get the one thing that you want. Right. And so it could be laced with a lot of other dangerous things.
Jam:Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.
Melissa:That's also why it's important for pharmaceuticals to be regulated. Because in pharmaceuticals, they do these multistep reactions as well. And at the end of the line, again, you really wanna make sure that your product is purified.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:So We hope that we have a combustion reaction that gives us all water and carbon dioxide. But in reality, there's probably some nitrogen gas in there or maybe there's even nitrogen from impurities in the gasoline. I don't think so. I think it's mostly from nitrogen gas in the air. But you get nitrogen oxides and carbon monoxide and then hydrocarbons that just didn't react.
Melissa:And all those can sometimes come out of our cylinders into our exhaust pipes as dangerous byproducts of the reaction.
Jam:K.
Melissa:So, essentially, either it doesn't fully get reacted or it produces side products that aren't desirable from the reaction conditions. Okay. So that's why those are even there in the 1st place. And I think that's a really good chemistry lesson just in itself. This is chalk full.
Melissa:There's, like, 3 different chemistry lessons in here. So the goal of the catalytic converter is to get rid of those bad side products. It's basically being an organic chemist. Right? It's like Purifying out the things it doesn't want.
Melissa:Okay. So that's its job. Really, I guess, any kind of chem chemist that does synthesis. There's inorganic chemistry do synthesis too.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And it is metal, so maybe it's an inorganic. But so when combustion engines have their emissions come out. They those emissions pass through what's called a three way catalyst.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And the three way catalyst serves to do 3 main things. That's why it's called three way. Is 1, the, there's nitrogen oxides, and that's nitrogen bonded to 1, 2, 3. I don't think there's many beyond that, but at least 3 oxygens.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And that will be stripped of its oxygens and become nitrogen and oxygen gas. Gas. Yeah. Hydrogen gas and oxygen gas, which are fine to be in the environment. We breathe in oxygen, and nitrogen is just like in there in the air anyway.
Melissa:And then there's carbon monoxide that is carbon with 1 oxygen instead of carbon with 2 oxygens. Mhmm. Carbon with 2 oxygens, again, fine. Carbon with 1 oxygen, not great for us to breathe in or to be in the environment.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And then there's also those unreacted hydrocarbons. And so carbon monoxide gets the oxygen added to it to become CO 2. Mhmm. And then the hydrocarbons also get oxygen added to them to also become c o two, and then the hydrogens to become water, h two o.
Jam:Got it. And you say so Carbon monoxide is one of the things that is produced that we're trying to get rid of.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:Hydrocarbons that didn't fully react.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And then what was the first one again?
Melissa:Nitrogen oxide.
Jam:Nitrogen oxide. Okay. I wanna get those 3, like, kinda down before we got too much further a lot. Nitrogen oxide.
Melissa:Good move. Okay. So nitrogen oxides really get broken down into n two and o two. Yeah. Carbon monoxide becomes carbon dioxide.
Melissa:Okay. And hydrocarbons basically finish the reaction they're supposed to start in the 1st place without the combustion Yeah. And become c o two n h two o.
Jam:Okay. Got it. Sweet. Lot of letters, a lot of things. I was like, I wanna get these
Melissa:Yeah. Straight. That makes sense. So nitrogen 1 well, nitrogen in 1, 2, 3 oxygens. Carbon and 1 oxygen becomes carbon and 2 oxygens.
Melissa:Hydrocarbons become carbon dioxide and water.
Jam:Got it. Got it.
Melissa:Okay. So that's what happens as it passes through the the gas has passed through this catalytic converter. So if you just wanted to stop right there, I guess you could, and that really tells you how it functions. It sort of acts as an air filter by using a catalyst of some kind To change those bad gases into neutral or good gases. Mhmm.
Melissa:So That sort of answers the question, and you did get a chemistry lesson out of it. Yeah.
Jam:Yeah. So
Melissa:So if you're like, okay. I'm done. This is a good place to bail out. But if you're with us and you wanna dig in deeper, I'm gonna talk about what the catalyst does and then Also, what these reactions are.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And I think this is a really fun episode because of all the little chemistry lessons in there.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:Okay. So any catalyst job really aids in a reaction and make it happen more quickly and easily.
Jam:K.
Melissa:And we've talked about that before maybe as it, like, lowering the amount of energy that it takes to make the reaction happen, but I like to think of it just as it being sort of a helper that's present, that's gonna do whatever it needs to do. Okay. So sometimes in organic chemistry, we add a little bit of acid to help move things around. And in this case, The catalysts are metal, and metals are good because they end up giving electrons easily or taking electrons easily without their identity really being changed too much.
Jam:Got it. Okay.
Melissa:And, actually, I kinda think of These are specifically those transition metals, which are the metal metals in the middle of the periodic table that are good at doing that because they sort of have a lot of electrons a la around.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So you can kind of think of the metal catalyst in this case as sort of a sea of electrons, just a bunch of electrons, and some metals are better about giving up electrons and some are better maybe about taking them in. But, ultimately, They're there to either take on or give up electrons because it's not a super big deal to them. I kind of think of it as maybe The oxygens and nitrogens and carbons that we talk about a lot don't have very many electrons. Mhmm. They're in the very We talk about sort of the valent shell, but they so their valent shell is really close to their center.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:So if you gain or lose 1. They don't have a ton, and so it's kind of like, oh, no. I lost an electron. That's a big deal. You know?
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:But if you're on the out if you we've got several layers of electrons and you gain or lose 1, the center of the atom may not even No.
Jam:I see.
Melissa:Okay. Maybe someone who's really poor loses $50. That's a big deal. Or even someone who College students, it's a big deal. They're closer to the beginning of their their finances.
Melissa:$50 is huge, but to most adults With children, they're dropping $50 for things left and right.
Jam:You're right. Right.
Melissa:Yeah. You know, the it's a sort of a scale of like, if you have less money, it affects less, and if you have more money at or wait. If you have less money, it affects you more.
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:Say that whole thing over again. Sort of like a scale. You know, if You don't have a lot of money and you take some of it away, that's a big deal. Yes. But if you have a lot of money and you take that same amount away, it might not be as big of a deal.
Jam:That makes total sense.
Melissa:Yeah. So metals are are, like, the rich in electrons. They don't really care. They get a little or lose a little. It doesn't really affect There's stability overall.
Jam:And it's cool because one of the things I was kinda wondering as we were building toward this was just how could something be a catalyst that we build into our cars, and how could it do it continually?
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:You know? How how are we not needing chemists to come by our houses While we're sleeping and put more catalyst in all of our cars, how could it keep doing the same thing over and over?
Melissa:Well, a lot of catalysts regenerate. I don't know if that's required of being a catalyst that it has to regenerate. But, like, inorganic chemistry, we will often add a small amount of acid. And and what happens is 1 atom will take on that acid that's usually in the form of, like, a proton and hold on to it, And then the reaction will happen, and then it gets released in the end. And and then another one will take it and hold on to it, and then it gets released so another one can take on to it.
Melissa:So it's sort of By the end of the reaction and the acid is taken in, but then it's produced back up.
Jam:I see.
Melissa:And so I don't know for sure If metals are that same way, I think that they are. Uh-huh. But I think the electrons do maybe get regenerated. I don't know for sure, but I think Maybe there's not a huge net loss of electrons.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So I'm not an inorganic chemist, and I did not look that back up Yeah. Before we did this episode. I Probably knew that once.
Jam:Well, it still sounds like what you're saying is a good situation for them anyway. If they can give up electrons
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And getting them back in, it doesn't really affect the each individual Adam very much
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Than you imagine happen that happening a lot over and over. They're probably as good as you could hope for
Melissa:Right.
Jam:To be doing this job.
Melissa:I don't think the metal gets degraded too much as a result, which might be because electrons do end up leaving and coming back.
Jam:Okay. Okay.
Melissa:I think.
Jam:Yeah. That would seem to make sense. But even so,
Melissa:It's still
Jam:yeah. I don't know. It still kind of answers one of the thoughts I had even if it's not completely
Melissa:certain. But I
Jam:was just thinking, like, is there there's not some just chemical sitting in there that could be depleted. You know? Right. No. There's not some so it's like it's a solid metal piece of something that can keep doing that.
Melissa:And even if it is getting eaten away 1 electron at a time or whatever, that is still a long lifetime because there's so many electrons present.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:Because One mole of something has however many 1.022 times 10 to the 23rd atoms present. Right? Yeah. That's a lot of Atoms and all those atoms have electrons, so there's just a lot of electrons there.
Jam:Y'all couldn't see it, obviously, but I just kinda did this, like, my like, All the numbers were just hitting me, and, like, my eyes were rolling in the back of my head, and I couldn't compute it.
Melissa:That's what was happening
Jam:in my in silence.
Melissa:I was just throwing really big numbers, and Jam was being mind blown actively.
Jam:Basically, anytime molasses says the word moles, I already kinda just know I'm not gonna really Get what's happening afterward as much. Maults were one of those big stumbling blocks for me back when I took chemistry, and I just tried tried so hard. That they're so hard for me to understand, but maybe that's a thing for another day.
Melissa:Well, yeah, that's something I think for another day. All you need to take away from this is It's a lot of electrons, and I think all catalysts have to be regenerated, although that might not be true. Inorganic chemists don't come at
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:This is a good example of how I'm not an expert in everything. And the episode was focused a different direction, so I didn't take the time to look this up. I was doing other things. So What can you do? You can't look up everything and anticipate every question.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:And take note of that. If you're a teacher, your students can when you don't know. So don't try to BS your way through it. Just say, I don't know. I think this way, but I don't wanna mess you up.
Melissa:So we can come back to it. Send to me in an email. That's what I always say when I don't know. Yeah. So it's a lot of electrons.
Melissa:It's a sea of electrons in these metals that our Car our gas emissions are coming too.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And so they help facilitate the reaction by having all of these electrons just around.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Okay. And they're so they're ultimately you know, they just make it easier to do the reaction.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So the type of reaction that they're facilitating is a specific kind, and it's 1 we have talked about before. Can you guess, based on what I've told you, That nitrogen, nitrogen oxides become n 2 and o two and carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons turn into CO 2 and water. What kind of reaction this might be? What?
Jam:It's like, Is it as obvious as I think
Melissa:it is? I don't know. What do you think it is?
Jam:Is it oxidation? Yes.
Melissa:Probably, like, 6. I think that's obvious everyone. Yeah.
Jam:It just seemed like okay. Everything's getting oxygen. Maybe it's oxygenation.
Melissa:Not everything is getting oxygen. But, yes. Yeah. Lots of things are getting oxygen. Yay.
Jam:Nice. I was like, this is a trap.
Melissa:No. There's no way. It's not. I wanted to take that as an opportunity for you to grow your confidence.
Jam:Okay. Good. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take any of those as long as I can get.
Melissa:So it's both an oxidation and a reduction reaction is happening. Both of those are happening.
Jam:Right. And I remember that it was Oil rig. Oxidation is loss?
Melissa:Of what?
Jam:Of an electron?
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And reduction is gain?
Melissa:Uh-huh.
Jam:Because electrons are negative.
Melissa:Yep. Got it. Okay. And, we talked about that that That basically, oxidation reduction can be conceptualized in kind of 2 ways. And I think Gen Chem takes The oil rig way where they focus on the movement of the electrons.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And we've done an episode where we talked about it that way too, especially about rust.
Jam:Oh, yeah.
Melissa:That episode?
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:And so we talked about, yeah, oxidation is losing electrons. Losing electrons makes you more positive because it's negative, And reduction is gaining electrons. Gaining electrons makes you more negative, and that's why we call it reducing.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:But then in Ochem, we kind of it in a separate way, which was always a little bit easier for me to grasp than why it was called oxidation Mhmm. Not The reduction part. But oxidation and reduction in OChem is gaining bonds to oxygen is oxidation usually, And losing bonds to oxygen is reduction. And you can broaden that out even further and say, like, gaining bonds to anything that's more Electronegative or has a tendency to have a lot of electrons around it is oxidation and then Losing bonds to that and replacing it maybe with something that has less electronegativity than less electrons around it, That's reduction.
Jam:K.
Melissa:So we we have had those 2 separate ideas of oxidation. Oil rig, reduction is gaining electrons, Oxidation is losing electrons. And then OCHEM definition, oxidation is gaining oxygens, And reduction is basically losing oxygens
Jam:Got it. Got it.
Melissa:Which is weird. Yeah. Yeah. So That's weird. They they don't feel like They go together.
Melissa:And what I'm so excited about in this episode is it does kind of show you how they go
Jam:together.
Melissa:Okay. And if you are in gen chem or you remember gen chem, You could try to write out the little half reactions where it has the elements and the electrons. Like, you write out electron as if it's one of the reactants. You know? If you remember that, this might be a good exercise for you, but you don't have to worry a ton about that.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And I'll connect it for you. So if you think about it, most things are bonded together because they want this proper number of especially in the lower, elements or the ones that are smaller so that they're The poor ones, they don't have as many electrons. Uh-huh. They really need that good number of electrons to be more stable. K.
Melissa:So if for example, we have nitrogen and oxygen, nitrogen has 5 electrons, oxygen has 6, neither of them have the really 8 is kind of what they're looking 4. So neither of them really have 8. So they'll come together and share electrons. Maybe they'll need to scavenge 1 more. In that way, With the sharing, it seems like both of them have roughly 8.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So if you're trying to break those apart, Usually, what would happen if you're trying to break a bond like nitrogen and oxygen is, one, it takes work to break apart a bond. Mhmm. And usually, one of those atoms is better at pulling electrons towards itself than another. So if I have nitrogen and oxygen, Oxygen is better at pulling electron towards itself.
Jam:K.
Melissa:So if I broke them apart, oxygen would probably be More have more electrons around it and would maybe be more negative. And then nitrogens would have less electrons around it and might be more positive. It needs electrons.
Jam:K.
Melissa:So if I broke them apart just when they're by themselves, say, in the middle of nothing, and I have 1 nitrogen oxygen, they're bonded together, they are sharing enough electrons to have 8 between the 2 of them for each of them. And then I split them up. There's gonna be a negative oxygen and a positive nitrogen, and they're gonna be They they were in a good situation. It got taken from them.
Jam:Got it. Okay.
Melissa:So that's it's very hard to do. It takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of work. They're not gonna wanna do it. But if you take that same thing and plunge it into a sea of electrons, that same nitrogen and oxygen bonded together, and you break them apart, they may still be charged, but this nitrogen can pick up the electrons it needs to get to neutral, and maybe oxygen Oxygen can drop 1 off or bond with the metal or whatever it needs to do to it to be neutral.
Melissa:Uh-huh. And then now everybody has their 8 electrons again because Instead of just breaking apart when they were totally alone, they got to break up in a sea of electrons that could basically meet their needs, and they can pick up or drop 1 off as needed.
Jam:Got it. Got it.
Melissa:And that is why gaining and losing oxygen bonds is also sort of an oxidation reduction reaction. Right? It's the electrons needed to be moving around are going to that's part of the reaction that's happening.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But in o chem, because we mostly only see oxygen in these specific ways, we simplify it way way down to just saying bonds to oxygen gained or bonds to oxygen lost.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But in general chemistry general chemistry and inorganic chemistry, look at the whole periodic table, so they Don't simplify it down just to looking at oxygen.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:But our main player of oxygen moving or of electrons moving around in that way is oxidation reduction.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:But you can see, when I describe it that way, that the electrons being present and are still moving around even if we're just talking about bonds increasing or bonds being taken away.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:So, really, what happens when your nitrogen and oxygen are in the sea of electrons, they get broken apart, Then the nitrogen can be stabilized by the electrons in the metal, and the oxygen may be also I mean, it might take as many electrons as it needs to be stable by itself. But if it wants to form o two, which is better, it can find another oxygen. They can drop off their extra electrons.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And then the nitrogen is stabilized until it can find another nitrogen, and then it becomes n 2, which is stable gas. And if they need any extra electrons, they have them there, and then they can go off. But I think when they find each other, that Yeah. Takes care of it.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So I think that's why the net electron is no change.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So, essentially, we have our nitrogen losing its oxygen, so it's being reduced. It gains electrons from the metal catalyst and then can form into with another nitrogen. And we have oxygen that's set free when it breaks away from the nitrogen. It finds another oxygen, but if they both have a lot of electrons around them, they'll need to drop some off before they can go. So it's being oxidized.
Melissa:It bonds to an oxygen, so oxidized, and also losing electron.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So that's where those 2 concepts come together. Yeah. You need the movement of electrons for bonds to be made and formed.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So nitrogen in that n o two, the nitrogen gets reduced and the oxygen gets oxidized.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:And that's how we end up with n two and o two.
Jam:Got it.
Melissa:And something similar happens with the carbon monoxide. When it is able to take in another oxygen, then we call that an oxidation reaction, and it becomes CO 2. Or if carbon and hydrogen, what happens to them is each of them also. Carbon becomes carbon dioxide. It adds on 2 oxygens and then the hydrogen.
Melissa:2 hydrogens get 1 oxygen.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And so that metal that is present in our cars, is able to give and take back electrons as it needs to and stabilize the atoms in the meantime until they can find each other and come this new thing very easily.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And that's how catalytic converters are able to take toxic emissions and turn them into it filters it by doing a chemical reaction, oxidation or reduction, To turn it into safe air to let out.
Jam:Dang.
Melissa:Isn't that amazing?
Jam:That's crazy. Yeah. It really is a lot more interesting than I expected it to be. And also, catalytic converter, I would never guessed it was doing that much cool stuff.
Melissa:I know.
Jam:It just seemed like one other car part.
Melissa:Even if someone just told me it basically filters the air, I think I would have thought it just captured the bad stuff.
Jam:Right. Right. Just like any filter would, like, in your house.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:You know, it felt like, oh, I was just getting the dust and stuff.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:You know?
Melissa:But no. It's Neutralizing it, basically. It's taking it from something dangerous to something safe Yeah. Kind of.
Jam:Yes. Yeah. Filtering I mean, I guess you could say the word filtering, but That makes it sound a lot more passive?
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And this is like, oh, no. This is
Melissa:It's converting.
Jam:Yeah. Converting some stuff.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:That's very crazy, dude.
Melissa:Yeah. So I hope it wasn't too complicated. I tried to sort of build up where it's like, okay. It's a filter. It filters by doing oxidation reduction reactions, and then literally here's the role of the metal.
Melissa:It's acting as a sea of electrons to stabilize Things as they break apart and reform.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's too complicated. I think I tracked with it. The hard
Melissa:part
Jam:is how How'd I explain it back? And, also, if I can think of any analogy that could help it, but I don't know if I can.
Melissa:Well, the only analogy A g I thought of is, like, if you go through a breakup when you have friends around you. Uh-huh. But then, I don't know if that really gets a third, like, gained and lost. Not like 1 person loses friends or I don't know.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:So that broke down for me, and then I gave up and decided I would let you do it.
Jam:I think I have sort of an idea brewing in my head. The only analogy that's really come to mind branching off of your, like, money, analogy used earlier just about Yeah. Catalysts having plenty of electrons.
Melissa:Mhmm. It's
Jam:would be similar to people having plenty of money, and losing a dollar or 2 here, there Feels insignificant when you've got Yeah. You know, hundreds of thousands or something like that. So in this case, I kinda thought, like, catalyst could be like banks.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:And there's, like, especially, like, think a big bank that, you know, has multiple occasions, a
Melissa:lot of stuff. But Right.
Jam:In general, At their disposal, they have so much money. Yeah. And people can even organizations and stuff Mhmm. Can Interact with this bank and get what they need. They can borrow money.
Melissa:Yep.
Jam:They could just withdraw money that's really theirs, actually.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:They can come deposit money. There's all that's happening on this large scale where a bunch of people are all putting in money, borrowing money Yeah. Taking money out. And it's all changing hands quickly, but because this bank has so much Yeah. It can meet all the different needs of different people.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And people aren't Coming, and they actually are trying to just put money in.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:They're trying to offload some money. Yes. Other people are coming, and they need to borrow some to buy
Melissa:a home
Jam:or a house or whatever or to take out a loan for any number of reasons.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And the bank being this hub that has such an excess of it.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:It's available to use. It can solve all the specific problems that people have.
Melissa:I think that's great.
Jam:Which should be kinda like so you've got, You know, you have more electrons than you need Mhmm. Or than really would be good for you to be released out into the
Melissa:pair. Right.
Jam:Or you're paired with something, you know, if you're n o two or whatever.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And you need to Have a wealth of electrons to to change that up.
Melissa:So you can break apart from each other.
Jam:Mhmm. And have us have the ability to to it's like starts to break down. Obviously, the bank thing
Melissa:breaks down.
Jam:But it it still works in the sense that, like, you could you could go wait on the rabbit hole and be like, oh, 2 people need to break up. They need some money, you know, or whatever.
Melissa:Well, I like that bank I'm thinking, like, maybe something like n o n o two or just n o. There are different denominations of oxygen. So we'll just say n o. Uh-huh. They need to break apart, but the so that the ends no longer dependent on the oxygen for its electrons.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So maybe it's like if a kid goes to college and they take out a student loan.
Jam:Yes. Yes.
Melissa:And then they go through college. And by the end, they have become a stable, Safe thing to release out into the world Yeah. Into a college educated person, and then they could go and be a productive member of society.
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:And then they can, You know, return back their money to the bank. Yeah. Yeah. Which I but I do think I should have done the math on this. I think they might I think nitrogen might net gain electrons even when it bonds with another nitrogen.
Jam:K.
Melissa:But that's it. Neither here nor there. Yeah. So they take this money or maybe, You know, they they're given a scholarship from the bank. You know?
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And they take this money, and they're transformed into A a more stable, safe person. Yeah. And then the o two, you know, if you have the if you have Inno and it breaks apart, Both of those auctions are gonna be negatively charged, like o two minus. Both of them are negatively charged. They have a lot of extra money, And it's really not gonna help them.
Melissa:They don't need that many electrons to be happy, so they start a scholarship fund or something. Maybe something like that. You know? Into the bank, it's like we don't we're fine. We can handle all this coming in and going out, and we're changing all money, and we even can create interest from it all being here.
Melissa:It doesn't really matter, but we can take money in and send money out to who needs it and who doesn't. And it's not Directly going from the nitrogen to the oxygen. It gets, like, through the bank's money first and then back out, maybe. Something like that. Yeah.
Jam:And you could even say, like I mean, if we really wanted to keep going, you can come up with all kinds of stuff. Like, okay. Say it's n o two, and it's it's One of them is the apprentice under somebody else starting a trade.
Melissa:Yeah. What would
Jam:be ideal for them to be out on their own is if you had a business loan Uh-huh. Go set their own business, And it'd be separate from you know, it's like, you could make up a lot of Yeah. Stuff.
Melissa:But, basically That was that's a good analogy because there's a wealth of Funding inside of a bank. Yeah. And it is changing hands a lot very quickly. And I do think that happens because it's not just n o that's being changed
Jam:also.
Melissa:Hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide are also being impacted.
Jam:Yes. And but at the same time, it's all happening very fast.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:But it's never quite significant enough where it's like, Uh-oh. Bank ran out of money.
Melissa:Right. You know?
Jam:It's it's all there's so much there that it can go come in and out Mhmm. On this consistent level and not change the nature of the bank's
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Existence and Yeah. And stuff, which seems like to be the case with how much Electrons, the the metals have the catalyst. But, so that's all I can think of analogy wise.
Melissa:I think that's good.
Jam:And maybe just let me spit out Some of the things that you said to make sure I understood them, but it's just that the n o 2 needs to go in it's bad for the environment.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:It needs to go into this catalyst, and this is a byproduct of the Reaction in the engine of the hydrocarbons being reacting with oxygen
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And burning, or whatever, empowering the engine. But n o two is
Melissa:It could also just be n o
Jam:Or n o.
Melissa:Or n o three. Usually, they write it as n o with a little x, like to recommend to indicate could be several.
Jam:Okay. Got it. So lots of different ways of that that none of them we want out in the air. No. And so if we can successfully Pull them apart
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And have nitrogen be happy with just another nitrogen. Yep. And oxygen would be happy with just one of their oxygen.
Melissa:Yep.
Jam:And so when they go into the bank, they're waiting until things can happen that can let them leave that way.
Melissa:Yep. That's
Jam:what they're hoping for. Mhmm. That's what we hope for too. Yes. With the hydrocarbons going in
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:They're they're ones that Should have reacted, but didn't. And so they left over, sort of, from the original engine piston situation. And they need to be, Before they leave the bank Mhmm. They need to go from being a hydrocarbon to being h two o
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:And carbon dioxide.
Melissa:Yes. So the carbon and hydrogen, basically, you can imagine those sort of separating out, and then the hydrogen will meet up with another hydrogen oxygen.
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:And the carbon will meet up with 2 oxygens, and then they're set forth.
Jam:And the last 1 I guess, earlier, you said this in a different order. Sorry. I So
Melissa:Oh, that's okay.
Jam:But the last 1 is carbon monoxide?
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:And so that one coming in to the bank, we wanna equip it With Mhmm. Another oxygen
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:So that'll be carbon dioxide Yeah. Before we Release into the world. Yeah. And those are the 3 things that the 3 main things that this catalyst is trying to Yep. Change filter out before It's this the leftover elements and atoms are put out into the Yeah.
Jam:Air, basically.
Melissa:And it has a pretty high efficiency, but it's not perfect.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So there is obviously still some admission. There will always be. And, I mean, unless we can get a literally 100% perfect chemistry reaction, which is hard for me to imagine.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:And that's why, you know, it's still important that you're careful with the environment. And if you've ever heard you shouldn't keep your car running in a parked garage
Jam:Yes.
Melissa:Yes. Because you can get carbon monoxide poison. I've also wondered if part of the carbon monoxide poisoning might also just be, like, Asphyxiation where they're not getting enough oxygen because there's also a lot of c o two Right. Being released. I don't know though.
Jam:Yeah. I wondered that too. Or, like, There's been times as horrible stories of of carbon monoxide leak in someone's house because of, like, gas or whatever that their, natural gas that they use for heating or cooking or whatever?
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:And then I wanted the same thing. Is it is it because the ratio of how much they're breathing got way off and they weren't getting oxygen?
Melissa:I think it's a I think it's a little bit of both. I think carbon monoxide can cause if you breathe that in, I think it can cause physiological symptoms. Yeah. But then I think also if you're not getting enough oxygen like, if, nitrogen's fine to breathe in, but You can't breathe in only nitrogen or you'll die.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:So sometimes, there's, like, a liquid nitrogen tank in our chemistry building. Uh-huh. And it's in a small room, and so you have to keep that door open when you're filling up a liquid nitrogen tank because Nitrogen is more dense than oxygen. So if there's a lot of it, it'll I guess, well, the liquid nitrogen is, it it sinks to the ground.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And then it eventually just becomes nitrogen and disperses out in the air, and it's fine. Right. But when it's in that liquid nitrogen state, it's when it's in that liquid nitrogen state, it's really dense, so it goes down. It it almost looks like dry ice, you know, when it does the steaming thing and it goes down on the ground. Yeah.
Melissa:But If you were to do that in a closed room and you're filling it up with liquid nitrogen in liquid nitrogen, it sinks down to the bottom, but then it would slowly start filling up the room with nitrogen atoms, and you might not get enough oxygen. Yeah. So that's very dangerous. Yeah.
Jam:Wow.
Melissa:So I I've wondered if the carbon monoxide Does obviously, it's damage if you park your car in a garage and leave it running with the garage door closed. But, also, if you aren't getting enough oxygen. I I wonder if there's sort of like a double whammy of carbon monoxide poisoning, plus you're breathing in such a low percentage of Oxygen. Yeah. Pure oxygen.
Melissa:You're just getting c o two and nitrogen and then also carbon monoxide if that's also dangerous. Yeah. So I've wondered about that, but I don't know. Yeah. That's another episode for another day.
Jam:Yeah. Interesting.
Melissa:And I've also thought How impressive it it is to me that catalytic converters are able to do this because I think, technically, the way it works is first, It runs through 2 different types of metal. So there's, rhodium and platinum, and then there's platinum and palladium.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And so the, I think the rhodium is more it's better at the reduction reaction. So the nitrogen gets its oxygen away first. And then maybe that oxygen then goes to the next plate of metal, which that plate of metal is, the platinum and palladium, and that helps facilitate the oxidation reaction. And so I've I wondered because to me, I'm like, there's so many moving pieces here. We're trying to make sure that every gas gets converted to a safest version in this order where it's not gonna react backwards, and the nitrogen in the house are gonna be converted Back and Yeah.
Melissa:It's hot in there, because cars are hot. And some of them, to make the reaction happen easier, they'll preheat it up. And then There is also, I think, under some amount of pressure, probably not a whole lot, but there is, you know, gas flowing into an enclosed space.
Jam:Right.
Melissa:Right. So it just feels like So many moving pieces that much like airbags, I'm very impressed at the efficiency. Yeah. And I think it'd be hard pressed to find something else that's as efficient. And I would almost think there would have to be, like, 2 chambers or you know?
Melissa:I'm like
Jam:Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:This could be this is a this could be something really hard to get right. And so I think that this is very impressive. I'd like I should have probably looked into who invented it and how hard it was, but it's already a long episode. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:So But I loved it. I thought it was so cool that I finally got the chance to sort of connect our 2 different oxidation reaction things together. Uh-huh. And, I loved learning about how the catalytic converter worked. I feel like it was just a really good episode.
Jam:Yeah. Agreed. Very interesting.
Melissa:So is there anything else good that you wanna report in your life, Jim, besides this really cool topic, this this really good Chemistry lesson you just had?
Jam:Yes. I'm reporting live. This just in. Actually, I think the only thing I can really think of that we We I sort of told you I was gonna mention this, but just the cool thing that happened this week is that my wife and I got to hang out with Melissa And Mason?
Melissa:Oh my gosh. That was so fun.
Jam:Easily the highlight of our last week, and we just had not gotten a chance to hang hang out in quite a while. They've been busy. We've been busy. All kinds of stuff. You get it.
Jam:You know what life is like. Yeah. So it was just great. We had to eat dinner. Melissa and Mason cooked.
Jam:So
Melissa:Yes. We cooked because, I don't know if you know that jam has a baby. Right. Right. Which those are supposed to be a lot of work.
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:And they don't do much cooking at all.
Melissa:No. They do not pull their own weight.
Jam:Nope. Not
Melissa:at all. Just sit around and look cute and cry.
Jam:Yes. And some babies don't even have the nerve to do that. So
Melissa:Just kidding. So we wanted to we usually do, like, a meal a meal train where everybody comes and brings meals for new parents. So we wanted to do that. So we brought over food, and then we barged our way in instead.
Jam:They also brought over themselves, and, we all hung out and Caught up and also watched the 1st episode of the rings of power.
Melissa:Oh, it was so good. We stayed up so late. I was a little zombie in the car on the way home.
Jam:It was really good. We're all 4 of us, Lord of the Rings fans in varying degrees.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:And, you know, there's lots of people talking about the show out there or whatever, but we have most of us not tried to look up anything about it.
Melissa:Yes. I've seen Whispers on TikTok, and that's it. And I tried to kinda stay out of the loop.
Jam:Yep. Same same deal. I don't like spoilers or anything like that. And so watching it with very clear, you know, blank slates, basically
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:Was really fun. And we just watched only 1 episode, and then we are gonna literally hang out again to watch more. So that'll be hard.
Melissa:It was really hard. But I will say then the next day, and not to be slighted, we also went and hung out with some of my other friends, old roommates
Jam:Right.
Melissa:One reviewer of the podcast. Yes. And we watched the 1st episode of season 2 of Ted Lasso, and that was really good too. So, You know, we're they have seen it. So I was allowed to keep watching that, so that's how Mason and I are filling our hearts up in the middle.
Melissa:Yeah. So at least we have that to, like, salve on the open wound.
Jam:Yeah. That's very true.
Melissa:Yeah. But
Jam:it's just much enough to be, like, a, like, sort of a Intro and teaser, and then we were like, well, we already stayed up so late. We can't watch another an episode. Tired.
Melissa:Well and also, Jam is really nerdy. I don't know if you guys It's probably why he's on this podcast, and he knew so much about the Lord of the Rings universe. We asked a question, and Jam had, Like, 5 minutes of backstory. And you're like, how? And then the next one, same thing.
Melissa:And I thought I knew a lot, but, man, he knew more. So that was very, very impressive.
Jam:Yeah. It's not coming handy often, so it's nice. You know? Like, the shoe got through on the other foot. It's like, I'm the expert here, and Melissa has an interest.
Jam:Yeah. But I'm not really an expert, and, actually, there's, so many people who know way more about Lord of the Rings.
Melissa:Oh, they're people who speak Elvish Yeah. Which means That he must have made Elvish. Yeah. Which means he made a whole language.
Jam:Yep. It's wild. I know. It's crazy. So I'm really not Anywhere close to knowing as much as a lot of people do.
Jam:But at least relative to you and Mason, it seemed impressive, which I'll take. I'll take it.
Melissa:It was really fun. Highly recommend if you haven't seen it, also highly recommend just getting time with friends. You know? Emily and I used to very regularly go out to the gas station for a little soda run, and we got to do that on Friday. And it's I mean, it's been a long time.
Melissa:And back before children, we did it all the time.
Jam:Yeah. And eating a meal in the in the home together is so fun. Yeah. Very underrated, I would say.
Melissa:Yeah. I've been eating out lately and consistently disappointed. Yeah. I don't know why. Although, I did have McDonald's the other day, and it hit the spot.
Melissa:But other places have been I don't know. It I just think, oh, if I just made it at home, it'd be harder, but it would taste better.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So get together with your friends, make your meal in their kitchen so that it feels like a party the whole time. That's what we did. And then just Eat good food and watch good shows. Yeah. And have good conversations.
Melissa:Yep. It was the best. Yeah. That's fun. We just got to do 1 happy thing together.
Jam:Yeah. I like it.
Melissa:What if that wasn't my fun thing? What if I was like, yeah. Those are right. But
Jam:I think I think you would've just felt bad. You know? I think I wouldn't had to say much. You would've been like, oh.
Melissa:Oh, awkward. Well, that was really fun. So thanks for having us ever in your house and for letting us hold your babies.
Jam:Anytime, and thanks for cooking.
Melissa:Of course. My pleasure. I'll trade you dinner for hanging out with a kid anytime.
Jam:Deal. We'll probably take you up on
Melissa:that multiple times. Anne, thanks for coming and learning about catalytic converters. I was so excited about this pairing of episodes because there was so much organic chemistry in it, And it's rooted in a lot of other things that we've talked about before, but then it also is a new application. So it's fun to get to see stuff like that crop up. And it's also fun when it's scary, and I'd been putting it off for a while, and then I was able to learn it.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:So there's so many fun things about this little 2 part series. So Thanks for learning about it, and thanks to our listeners for learning as well. We could not do this if there weren't people out there who cared to learn. Guess we could, but it would just be going out into the universe to no one.
Jam:Yes. Exactly.
Melissa:And we would not have gotten this great episode idea without y'all. So thank you so much for giving us all those, All the feedback and questions and listening and being excited about chemistry with us.
Jam:Thanks for teaching us all the cool stuff and being willing to To do that, the hard part. All of us who are curious to learn, but wouldn't be able to teach ourselves. So thanks for doing that. If you have an idea or Question that you something you think is chemistry that you've wondered about in your everyday life. Please reach out to us on Gmail, Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook at Kim for your life.
Jam:That's Kim, f o r, your life to share your thoughts and ideas. If you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the costs of making it, Go to kodashfi.com/kemforyourlife or tap the link in our show notes. Don't know at the cost of a cup of coffee. If you're not able to donate, you can still help us by subscribing in our favorite podcast app and rating and writing our review on Apple Podcasts. That also helps us share chemistry with even more people.
Melissa:This episode of chemistry for your life was created by Melissa Collini and Jam Robinson. References for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. Jim Robinson is our producer, and we'd like to give a special thanks to Kay Molina and s Navarro who reviewed this episode.
