What are muscles and their cramps?

Wait, muscles are biology right? Well they're also chemistry. And guess what, muscle soreness and cramps are also chemistry. And believe it or not, the mystery of muscle soreness is much bigger than you might expect. Check it out!
Melissa:

Hey. I'm Melissa.

Jam:

I'm Jam.

Melissa:

And I'm a chemist.

Jam:

And I'm not.

Melissa:

And welcome to Chemistry For Your Life.

Jam:

The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.

Melissa:

Okay, Jim. Are you ready for today's topic?

Jam:

I'm very ready.

Melissa:

Me too. I'm excited about it. The topic comes from listener and friend of this show, Shail.

Jam:

Nice.

Melissa:

Jael is our Australian friend, and she, from her Instagram stories, appears to be an exercise fiend, like Just a total boss exercising all the time.

Jam:

Yeah. Total boss is exactly the phrase I was thinking about.

Melissa:

And she posted or sent us a question asking. She said at first, she thought it was more biology, but then she remembered everything is chemistry. That's right, Shayl. Good job. So she asked about muscles muscle soreness and muscle cramps, which those are kind of 2 different questions which she asked about what is the chemical cause behind both of them.

Jam:

Okay.

Melissa:

So we're gonna talk about both of those things, both what is the chemistry of muscle cramps, is the chemistry of muscle soreness. Mhmm. Exercise related for both of them. This is not related to other kinds of muscle soreness.

Jam:

Got it.

Melissa:

And sometimes they call muscle soreness that comes on you know, sometimes you'll be sore the next day.

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

They call that delayed onset muscle soreness or DOMS. That's sometimes gonna be referred to that

Jam:

Okay. Way.

Melissa:

Okay. So that's the techno technological terms for all the stuff we're gonna talk about.

Jam:

K.

Melissa:

But first, I wanna talk about the chemistry.

Melissa:

We're gonna do a little chemistry lesson, and then we'll get into those Answers.

Jam:

Okay. Got it.

Melissa:

Okay. So do you know what muscles are?

Jam:

Long

Melissa:

Yeah. The

Jam:

chunks of long strings of Protein or something?

Melissa:

That's actually pretty close. Yes. They're made up of proteins.

Jam:

Like bungee cords? Mhmm.

Melissa:

Yeah. They're made up of proteins. They have contraction and relaxing capabilities. We won't get into that because that's complicated and very biochemistry and a little bit above my area of expertise.

Jam:

Okay.

Melissa:

But they are made up of proteins. Proteins are super versatile. They make up a bunch of things in your body

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

Including muscles, tendons, enzymes. They're everywhere. They're they're all over the place. Proteins are everything. And when we did our scrambled egg episode, We talked about what proteins are.

Melissa:

Do you remember that?

Jam:

Yes. I do remember that. That was a cool episode, And I wish I had the we listened to it before we did this.

Melissa:

That's okay. This the chemistry lesson today is really mostly a review, so it okay if you don't remember? Do you want me to remind you?

Jam:

So it's something about the proteins being All kind of loosey goosey and stuff and then getting all whenever they're cooked, getting All, like, tangled up and all intertwined and stuff, which gives it a lot more sudden, like, solid structure versus it's, like, Lucy liquidy state before. That's what

Melissa:

I thought. That's what happens that's that's what happens when we cook proteins.

Jam:

Okay. Got it.

Melissa:

But do you remember what Proteins are made up of

Jam:

Oh, amino acids?

Melissa:

Yes. Good job. I'm so proud of you for remembering that. Got it in the old Ticker up here. Uh-huh.

Melissa:

So they're made up of amino acids. Do you know what amino acids are?

Jam:

Have you ever like, when you're a kid walk Down the street in, like, the kinda neighborhood grouch yells at you, like, stop playing with your toy or tricycle or whatever on their lawn and stuff?

Melissa:

Yeah. Definitely.

Jam:

Okay. So that's basically that's basically what amino acids are. You're should they're just a you're just a amino acid.

Melissa:

I knew that was coming. Now that we've got that

Melissa:

out of the way. Sorry.

Jam:

So I do not know. I mean, it's an acid, I guess. I Did probably at some point know what amino acids were. All I can think of right now is it's clearly an acid. My AP biology teacher probably definitely taught me this.

Jam:

And, miss Wise, I'm sorry. I do not remember exactly what they are. But the fact they make up that proteins are made up of amino acids is from her. Like, that is drilled into my brain for some reason. Did that carry it

Melissa:

on?

Melissa:

Job, miss Wise.

Jam:

But some of it said, and That's to her credit for sure.

Melissa:

Okay. So well, I'll go more deep into what amino acids are. Okay. So amino acids are called amino acids because they have 2 functional groups. Functional groups, we've talked about this before, are just basically little combinations of Atoms in a specific arrangement that has a consistent function.

Jam:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

So, For example, a nitrogen surrounded by a few hydrogens is known as an amine. A carbon double bonded to an oxygen on one side and with a single bond to an oxygen and a hydrogen on the other is known as a carboxylic acid.

Jam:

Okay.

Melissa:

These things appear in all kinds of different molecules in this arrangement. They they have good function in this arrangement, so they'll show up that way consistently in nature. They naturally occur, and so we just gave them names to make it easier to keep track of them so that we could all be speaking the same language when we're talking about them.

Jam:

Got it.

Melissa:

And so we call that Kind of recurring group, a functional group, and then the specific groups have names like an amine or carboxylic acid.

Jam:

Okay. Got it.

Melissa:

Alcohol is also considered a functional group, an Oh group, or there's something called an aldehyde that has a Carbon, double bonded to an oxygen, and a hydrogen. Just different arrangements of atoms make up functional groups.

Jam:

Got it. Okay. Cool.

Melissa:

Amino acids are called that because they have an amine functional group and a carboxylic acid functional group.

Jam:

Got it. Okay.

Melissa:

So there's the it's sort of like amine acid, amino acid. That's where you get that.

Jam:

Got it. Got it. Okay. So the first so amine is not an acid on its own?

Melissa:

No. Amines are basic.

Jam:

Got it. Okay.

Melissa:

Generally. And acids are acidic. And that's actually convenient because Then an amino acid can react with another amino acid. The basic part of 1 amino acid can react with the acidic part of another amino acid. And then the basic part of that amino acid can react with the acidic part of another amino acid.

Melissa:

And that creates a long chain of repeating units

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

Of amino acids, also known as A large molecule made up of several smaller molecules.

Jam:

Woah. Dude, it's a polymer?

Melissa:

It's a polymer.

Melissa:

No way.

Melissa:

Proteins are polymers. Yeah. I think we maybe touched on that in the egg episode.

Jam:

Oh, yeah.

Melissa:

You're right.

Melissa:

Couldn't remember

Melissa:

Yeah.

Melissa:

For sure. So

Jam:

I'm thinking about it in the context of, like, a muscle that for a second blew my mind because, like, wait. Her muscles are polymers in their way? But Yes. You're right. If I disconnected the dots of, like, eggs are proteins, and they are polymers like we talked about, I would have already been able to realize that.

Jam:

But That's still good.

Melissa:

Also in the new context, it's crazy.

Jam:

Yeah. That's still good.

Melissa:

Your muscles polymers are so ubiquitous. They're in your muscles. They are everywhere. So that's what a muscle is. Muscles are made up of proteins.

Melissa:

Proteins are made up of amino acids. Amino acids are made up of atoms that are arranged in a specific way. So there's a basic side and acidic side, and they can react with each other to make a nice long chain.

Jam:

Got it. Got it. Got it.

Melissa:

And these chains fold up, you know, and make up the proteins. So do you want to try take a stab at explaining back to me the chemistry of mussels?

Jam:

Yes. So So there's probably like a 1000000000 different analogies I want to pick to explain this, but I feel like one was that comes to my mind. The first is just, like, a building. So, like

Melissa:

Okay.

Jam:

You know, some metal, like, steel or something, and glass, and some wood. And then it's like, okay. Well, each of those things is made up of more stuff. Like, well, the glass is like silicon and whatever else, And steel is, like, bunches a bunch of metals mixed together, something like that. And Mhmm.

Jam:

Wood is a lot of stuff going on in it, but We don't make it. We find it. So you guys, like, keep zooming in on every single thing, but still it's like, it's a building. It's made up of things

Melissa:

Right?

Jam:

That are made up of things that are made up of things.

Melissa:

It's like Yes.

Jam:

Very Russian doll in a lot of ways.

Melissa:

Such is life.

Melissa:

Such is life.

Jam:

So we've got the from I'll go from the outside in. We got the muscle Mhmm. Which is made up of lots of there's, I guess, these kind of string thingies or whatever of that are that are protein.

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Jam:

And the proteins are made up of amino acids, like, all fished together and then wound up together. The amino acids are made up of 2 functional groups. One is amine

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Jam:

Which is basic, And the other one is carboxylic acid

Melissa:

Yep.

Jam:

Which is acidic. Mhmm. So in the 1st place, that allows them to interact interact together and form chains.

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Jam:

And then also allows them to interact and react with other things because they have a basic part and an acidic part that could could react with other stuff?

Melissa:

Yes. Outside of proteins usually, and there's also functional groups besides just those that are on the different amino acids. So they have the acidic part and the basic part, and then usually they have a chain off of them that can also do even more stuff.

Jam:

Okay.

Melissa:

So there's there's a lot more to amino acids than just the acid and base part, but that's the part that applies Specifically to making proteins.

Jam:

Got it. Got it. Okay. And because it is a molecule made up of smaller Molecules. Molecules.

Jam:

It Mhmm. Is also a polymer.

Melissa:

That's right.

Melissa:

And

Jam:

That is that everything?

Melissa:

I think that's a good overview of what a muscle is. So that's a good overview of what a muscle is Uh-huh. But it's not a great overview of the chemistry behind how muscles really work.

Jam:

Right.

Melissa:

So everything about muscles made up of chemistry and even the signals that we send to mussels to tell them what to do, also chemistry. But that is very much into the biochemistry sphere and less into the Pure chemistry sphere?

Melissa:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Melissa:

So there's a lot I don't know about it. So if there are biochemists out there or biologists out there that know a lot about the chemical signaling to muscles, We'd love to have an episode on just that. So when I was looking up information about muscle soreness and cramps, I was really worried that I was gonna Have to relearn all this biochemistry stuff about how muscles function.

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

And that's a lot to relearn in a week's time. You know? So I was pretty worried, But it turns out I don't have to be.

Jam:

Nice.

Melissa:

Because the answer To why there are muscle cramps and delayed onset muscle soreness is that we don't know.

Jam:

What?

Melissa:

I know. I love it when that's the answer. It just is so good to remember that we have so much more to learn. You know? Yeah.

Melissa:

So I have papers ranging from 2002 to 2020

Jam:

Uh-huh.

Melissa:

Which makes statements regarding the distinct occurrences of muscle cramps, in the moment muscle cramps from exercise, And delayed onset muscle soreness.

Melissa:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Melissa:

So the first one's from a Scientific American. This is not peer reviewed, but is written by a professor physiology. And he says, there's little definitive knowledge about the etiology of exercise related muscle cramps. Traditionally, such cramping was believed to arise from dehydration, electrolyte imbalances, accumulation of lactic acid, or low cellular energy levels. These proposals, however, have been shown to have minimal scientific value.

Melissa:

That was 2002.

Jam:

That was

Melissa:

about muscle cramps.

Melissa:

Uh-huh.

Melissa:

2010 in the Journal of Sports Health, Peer reviewed journal, they state this paper stated, exercise associated muscle cramps are a common condition experienced by recreational and competitive plates. Despite the despite their commonality and prevalence, their cause remains unknown. Theories for the cause of exercise associated muscle cramps are primarily based on anecdotal and observational studies rather than experimental Dense. In another paper published by the Public Library of Science, it's peer reviewed. It was in 2013.

Melissa:

I'm gonna summarize it a little bit. Essentially, it said, The results regarding the effects of muscle soreness, delayed onset muscle soreness, are often conflicting. And the etiology of delayed onset muscle soreness is still unclear. That was 2013. And then last but not least, in 2020, in a peer reviewed journal called the called The Archives of Physiotherapy, The pathophysiology, that's a fancy word for the physical biological pathway, basically Uh-huh.

Melissa:

Of delayed onset muscle soreness remains unclear. Although it seems to be related to the remodeling phase of myofibrils. So that's the rebuilding of the muscles, essentially. Mhmm. So there are a lot of theories, but there is not a lot of evidence or clear information on why we get either muscle cramps or muscle soreness.

Jam:

Weird. Dude, that's crazy.

Jam:

And I remember hearing I have not done a ton of athletic stuff in my life, but When I have and have just looked up a couple things, people say the same stuff all the time without a lot of reasons. But just like, Oh, lactic acid builds up with your muscles and you you're Right. Blah blah blah. And it just stuff that doesn't really actually tell you why. It's just they have similar, You know, evidence I I guess people might agree about, like, something building up on your muscles, but not really knowing why.

Jam:

Right. You know?

Melissa:

Yes. And that is something I should state. There is a more acidic environment, I believe, because of lactic acid when there's less oxygen getting to your muscles, But they can't clearly state that that is why there's muscle soreness. And, actually, it seemed like the one that had the most evidence was the Remodeling phase of the myofibrils that they referenced a 2013 paper that seemed to have pretty good evidence for that, but I don't know conclusively. I'm not in the field.

Melissa:

That was 7 years ago. So or maybe even 8 now. Mhmm. So I feel like they might have learned more. I can't find anything specifically on that.

Melissa:

If someone's in the field and knows more about it, please please please share with us. We think that's so interesting.

Melissa:

But so there's not a lot of Evidence. There's not a

Melissa:

lot of research that really shows what's going on. It's complicated, and it's super interesting, and they're learning more For sure. There was a paper, I think it was in 2003, that addressed specifically the lactic acid versus something else causing muscle cramps. That was really interesting. But the most interesting thing I found was published in the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry, And that paper blew my mind.

Melissa:

So The reason we talked about amino acids earlier in this episode is because you've got these 20 there's roughly 20 amino acids that are involved in making proteins. Uh-huh. But there are other amino acids that aren't involved in making proteins. There's one Known as I believe you pronounce it citrulline. That's how I would do it as a chemist.

Melissa:

Uh-huh. It's important for metabolic processes, But it's pretty uncommon.

Jam:

K.

Melissa:

So recently, studies have started to show that this little guy, this little citrulline amino acid seems to greatly reduce muscle soreness and, increase Athletic performance. But, again, we don't really know why.

Jam:

Yeah.

Melissa:

So one study had athletes. It was a group of men. The sample size was pretty saw small, only 7 men.

Melissa:

Uh-huh.

Melissa:

But they Would drink either unpasteurized watermelon juice, supplemented watermelon juice, or A placebo drink that had similar nutritional content, similar color, but was not made up of watermelon juice.

Jam:

Okay.

Melissa:

That did not have citrulline in it. Watermelon has high naturally occurring amounts of citrulline in it.

Melissa:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Melissa:

When the athletes drink the watermelon juice and I believe the supplemented citrulline juice, They had almost no muscle soreness the following day. However, when they did the exercise With just the placebo drink, they did have muscle soreness.

Jam:

Weird.

Melissa:

And they randomized it and had some men all the men did both with the citrulline and without. The same exercise, same procedure before and after. And so the same man with watermelon juice Did not have soreness and without watermelon juice, did have soreness for the same exercise over the course of a Reasonable period of time.

Jam:

What the

Melissa:

I know. So

Jam:

watermelons are magic?

Melissa:

Apparently so. They also did a sort of smaller supplemental study where they Exposed I believe it was colon cancer cells to watermelon juice, pasteurized, unpasteurized, and then, like, a supplement. Mhmm. And the citrulline that was naturally occurring in unpasteurized watermelon juice had the highest level of being absorbed by the cells. So you would assume that our bodies would get the most benefit because our cells would most be able to absorb citrulline in its natural state based on those study.

Melissa:

Mhmm. So the best option rather than taking a supplement, for example, would be to literally drink watermelon juice that's unpasteurized. Wow. If you're a serious athlete.

Jam:

Dang. That's crazy, dude.

Melissa:

Probably if you're not a serious athlete too, but isn't that amazing?

Melissa:

Yeah. It just seems like

Jam:

one of the things that you'd see in a really shady or not proven article or something like that. Oh, you gotta drink watermelon juice. Like, it seems The kind of thing that would get passed around, you know, colloquially and stuff and and be like a home remedy that's not hasn't been proven or whatever.

Melissa:

Right.

Jam:

And that is crazy.

Melissa:

It's crazy. And it this is not the only paper that has found citrulline does have a reduction of Muscle soreness increases athletic performance. There's other perform other there's other publications that also support this. So it's not like 1 person found these crazy results. They referenced other papers that also cited citrulline as reducing muscle soreness and increasing athletic performance.

Melissa:

It's just the most fun when it's watermelon juice.

Melissa:

You know?

Jam:

Yeah. And

Melissa:

so did

Jam:

you ever say this? Like, what what is citrulline also in? Is it in anything else that we can easily go ahead and

Melissa:

not very common. They I didn't see what else is in. I didn't look for that. I probably could check real quick. But what it said literally in the chemistry and engineering news article was citrulline, Specifically, l citrulline, I don't think that distinction matters a ton in our context, but citrulline is an uncommon amino that that until recently hasn't gotten a lot of attention.

Melissa:

So they just say it's not very common.

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

Watermelon is one of the few natural foods with an abundance of L Citrulline.

Jam:

Wow.

Melissa:

So that was kind of The extent of of what it said.

Melissa:

Yeah. Weird dude. That is so crazy.

Melissa:

I went and did a quick Google. I don't have a peer reviewed journal article for this, so I Don't know the scientific foundation for it, but a Healthline article just said that it's in watermelon pumpkins, cucumber, bitter melon, and gourds.

Jam:

I don't

Melissa:

know for sure.

Jam:

Okay.

Melissa:

But that's, you know, the brief overview the Internet gave me. Yeah. A quick Google. So that's that's the magical amino acid and why I wanted to talk about amino acids, Citrulline. Mhmm.

Melissa:

That it really does seem to do something, and I wish that we could talk about what it does.

Jam:

Yeah. Seriously.

Melissa:

But it really does seem to do something To muscle soreness or to inhibit the occurrence of delayed onset muscle soreness after exercise. Uh-huh.

Jam:

Uh-huh. Wow. That is crazy, dude.

Melissa:

So get your watermelon juice out before you exercise, people. Just take some watermelon juice.

Jam:

That makes me wonder.

Melissa:

Good to go.

Jam:

Like because I'm not I don't love watermelons, but I don't hate them either. I'm like, I wonder how easy it is to get some watermelon juice. I've never seen that before, but I haven't looked Or either.

Melissa:

Yeah. I think a lot of people have juicers, so that would probably be ideal. I also wonder if just eating watermelon will

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Melissa:

It probably wouldn't Have quite the concentration, but that might do something. I don't really know. And, also, I'm not a doctor nor am I prescribing any kind of advice. Please don't sue us if drinking watermelon juice doesn't work for you.

Jam:

Don't be mad at us. Be mad at yourself.

Melissa:

So that's your update on sore muscles, and thank, Shale, so much. That was a really fun foray into the biochemistry world.

Jam:

And I learned something that I

Melissa:

didn't know before, so I really enjoyed this.

Melissa:

And Shail could definitely do, like, a very anecdotal Test of this just in her own experience. If she wants to, totally up to her.

Jam:

But with how much she is, like, very into working out and stuff, I feel like

Melissa:

And she probably has a juicer because she seems very hip to all the nutritional information. She's sent us questions before asking about nutrition, so I think that is a possibility, so that'd be fun. A fun little experiment to do. If anyone wants to try this out and report back to us, that'd be fun. But, again, We're not doctors.

Melissa:

So this made me really happy. But speaking of things that Made us happy. Jam, do you have something happy from this week that you wanna report back?

Jam:

Yes. I do. So this is not new news, really. But Just in the last week since we talked to you guys last, we finally Em and I closed on the house we've been in process of buying,

Melissa:

Which Yeah.

Jam:

Yeah. That just feels like such a relief to be done with that part. So so I've been happy. We Don't haven't moved anywhere yet. We're doing projects on the house and stuff, but it is nice for that part to be done.

Jam:

The house is ours now. And, and so that was definitely a really cool thing since we recorded last. What about you? What's been going on in your life?

Melissa:

Well, I kind of already knew about your house situation. And, actually, we had a nice, safe social distance, dropped off some food for Jammin' M to celebrate. But, also, in preparation for their move, we had a little garage sale, which is kinda nice to be outside, But it felt normal to be outside. That's where garage sales happen anyway. Mhmm.

Jam:

Yep.

Melissa:

And we did a Doughnut taste test to kick off our morning. So this was this included me, My boyfriend, JM, and then their roommate, Miriam, was really fun. And we we wore masks, Hand sanitized. Used a knife to cut up, so it was very safe. But we tried out this new doughnut Chain in Denton that I've been very excited about for a while called Amy's Donuts.

Melissa:

Mhmm. And so we got to taste test a lot of their different donuts, and it was just really fun. I love donut taste testing, And I love a good excuse. I get I try to limit my desserts to the weekend, you know, to try to maintain a healthier lifestyle. So that was a Very good.

Melissa:

Dessert choice for the week. Yeah. I think my favorite was they have a glazed donut with pie filling on top, and it was really good. Is apple pie filling. What about you?

Melissa:

Did you have a favorite jam?

Jam:

Oh, yeah. So, again, definitely a good idea. Let me second that. And we had done one of these that I actually talked about on the podcast, like, you know, maybe, like, a year plus ago.

Melissa:

Mhmm.

Jam:

And But we just did 2 kind of normal donut donut shops, not like Amy's, which has these really crazy fancy donuts and lots of different ideas and stuff. So this was, like, up to another level, basically, than what I'd experienced in the past. And I think one of those that stood out to me the most was the maple bacon one. Oh, yeah. I think I just love that That mix of the sweet and savory.

Jam:

I don't know that it would be, like, my favorite favorite, but of the the ones we tasted Saturday, To me, it it's the one I thought about more later, and I kinda like that it curves the sweetness because you know? Especially if you're having a few donuts in a row or something like that even a few Yeah. Bites of donuts in a row. That one being, like, not only sweet, but having that savoriness to it was really nice. So That was a good one.

Melissa:

Well, I forgot to take pictures of the donuts themselves, but I did get a cute picture of the mural inside Amy's And done. So I'll post that up online for you guys on the social media stuff, and you can see our cute donut experience or at least a part of it.

Jam:

Yeah. And give, yeah, give Amy some love, so that'd be cool.

Melissa:

So, yeah, if you're in the Denton area, or I think they have a few other locations. Go check out Amy's donuts. So the actual donuts themselves were very light and fluffy. They there was a solid just donut base, then they add a lot of interesting things to them, so it's pretty good. Yeah.

Melissa:

So that was a fun thing. I really enjoyed that, and it felt Almost normal to be outside at a garage sale. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Melissa:

That's where they happen. The masks were on, and And there was lots of hand sanitizing after exchange of money, so that was a little different. But overall, I felt like The donut experience and the being with the friends part was really nice. Yeah. So

Jam:

Dude, amen.

Melissa:

That was really fun. So thanks, Jam, for letting me come and crash Sure. Move out garage sale and for learning about muscle soreness. I love how we talked about donuts and exercise in the same Yep.

Melissa:

Hand in hand. Yeah.

Melissa:

So thanks for coming and learning about that, and thanks to all of you listeners for also coming and learning about our lack of knowledge About muscle soreness. It's really a fun topic, and I really enjoyed it a lot.

Jam:

And thank you, Melissa, for teaching us. And, Shael, thanks for sending in that question. And if you have a question, something you wonder about, wonder if it's chemistry, don't hesitate to ask us. You can reach out to us and email us on Gmail. You can tweet us on Twitter.

Jam:

You can gram us on Instagram. You can book us on Facebook. On all those things, we are chem for your life. That's chem, f o r, Your life to share your thoughts and your ideas. If you like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to kodashfi.com /chem for your life, and donate the cost of a cup of coffee.

Jam:

If you're not able to donate, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast app and rating and writing a review on Apple Podcasts. That also helps us to be able to share chemistry with even more people.

Melissa:

This episode of Chemistry For Your Life was created by Melissa Collini and Jam Robinson. References for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. Jim Robinson is our producer, and we'd like to give a special thanks to a Heffner and in Newell who reviewed this episode.

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