Melissa: 00:00

Okay, Jam. Today's episode is gonna be about PFAS.

Jam: 00:03

PFAS.

Melissa: 00:04

You know what those are?

Jam: 00:05

PFAS? Yes. Are those the forever chemicals?

Melissa: 00:09

Yeah. Yes. Yep. They're called forever chemicals, but also PFOA, PFOAS, PFAS.

Jam: 00:16

I think O o a one of those was the the one that we used in the Teflon episode.

Melissa: 00:21

But One of them, we did talk about in Teflon.

Jam: 00:23

Okay.

Melissa: 00:24

Yep. Yep. Mhmm.

Jam: 00:25

Yeah. So I kinda know what they are.

Melissa: 00:27

Kind of. Yeah. But we're gonna talk about them more. I was gonna say we dipped our toe a little bit into the water with Teflon.

Jam: 00:33

Right.

Melissa: 00:34

But we're gonna revisit that because it's been 3 years.

Jam: 00:36

Dip their toe into the black poisonous water of

Melissa: 00:41

of the DuPont's, alleged, Yeah. Chemical runoff. So we're gonna revisit just PFAS or PFAS in general.

Jam: 00:51

Okay.

Melissa: 00:52

And first, I'm just Today, I'm just gonna talk about what they are and, you know, why they're considered unsafe, why they're called forever chemicals, and then I'm I'm gonna talk about what I think about them as a chemist, and then I think this is gonna end up being being a series where we come back and talk about what they're doing to try to get rid of them, How they probably covered up that they knew they were bad, all the good stuff.

Jam: 01:15

Okay. Okay.

Melissa: 01:15

So this is gonna be a little bit of a I think this is similar to plastic and Teflon where it's like we're starting a saga.

Jam: 01:23

Okay. Sounds good. I'm in.

Melissa: 01:24

Alright. Let's get into it. Hey. I'm Melissa.

Jam: 01:38

I'm Jam.

Melissa: 01:38

And I'm a chemist.

Jam: 01:39

And I'm not.

Melissa: 01:40

And welcome to chemistry for your life.

Jam: 01:41

The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.

Melissa: 01:45

Okay. And this episode is dedicated to our brand new patron, Katrina. She's at our top tier. So, hopefully, Katrina will see you at one of our Coffee hours coming up this month.

Jam: 01:55

Yes. Those are super fun. And if you join our Patreon at any level, we give you a shout out. The 1st new episode we record after you join and dedicate the episode to you, and then we get to include you in our Thank yous for making this podcast possible. At the end of the episode of every single episode

Melissa: 02:14

Yeah. From

Jam: 02:15

yeah. As long as you're on our Patreon. So we are really Huge fans of that group of people. Thank you all so much. And, Katrina, thanks for joining our super cool community of patients, our Chem Unity.

Melissa: 02:26

Chem oh, that's good. Our Chem Unity. How did we not think of that before?

Jam: 02:30

I did. I just think I think we had already

Melissa: 02:33

It was too lame.

Jam: 02:34

Yeah.

Melissa: 02:34

It's 2 dad joking. Okay. Well, before we get into this episode dedicated to Katrina, I do wanna talk about How serious that this topic is.

Jam: 02:44

Okay.

Melissa: 02:45

And I take it really seriously, but it also is just so, so, so much information. And it's supercharged politically and, maybe not politically, but, like, supercharged hot topic. What's the word for that? Or it's, like, in the news and everyone's aware of it. So

Jam: 03:04

Annoying or

Melissa: 03:06

No. It's like a big Media or I don't I can't remember. But it's very charged, and there's lawsuits going on around it, and everybody who writes about it has an angle. Like, I listened to a podcast From a chemistry company about, these things, and it was it was just slanted to be the best and most optimistic Stick light. You know?

Jam: 03:25

Right. Right.

Melissa: 03:26

And so it is hard to get really good, perspectives on it.

Jam: 03:31

Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. A lot of money involved. A lot of people to to stand to either benefit or be very hurt Yes.

Jam: 03:38

In their business bottom lines being affected Mhmm. In some way.

Melissa: 03:42

Yeah. And human lives at stake in some

Jam: 03:44

cases. And, please, none of you who have a lot of power and influence and money and lawyers, please don't come for us. We're a little.

Melissa: 03:51

Mhmm.

Jam: 03:51

We're just a little podcast. So

Melissa: 03:53

And this is all alleged?

Jam: 03:54

Yes.

Melissa: 03:55

And I linked to the original sources. So There you go.

Jam: 03:58

Nice.

Melissa: 03:59

And I did try to stick to chemistry and engineering news, Royal Society Chemistry's, chemistry world. The American Chemical Society has a YouTube channel called reactions that usually has really good information and then, You know, some primary sources, but those are do a good job of distilling it down to a level that I can take it in.

Jam: 04:18

Right. And those are super legit, Mhmm. Like organizations, we use them a ton. So many, if you look through our our resources, most of this research includes them on a regular basis because they're so solid.

Melissa: 04:29

So And even they have something to gain, and even they have a slant, but I try to take it knowing that in

Jam: 04:34

the Right. Right.

Melissa: 04:36

And even I have a slant. Yeah. But I did wanna talk about What made me decide to do this episode?

Jam: 04:41

Okay.

Melissa: 04:42

So I feel like I've I've gotten questions about this a lot, and it's sort of been on my periphery of like, oh, yeah. I should do that. But it was kind of overwhelming to me, and it felt like kind of a big wait. Like, this is kind of a hard thing to talk about. And recently, I was at a conference with a group of Friends who also have backgrounds in chemistry, and we are talking about of all things, period underwear.

Melissa: 05:03

So it's like they're super absorbent. If, you don't know about them? They act similar to, like, menstrual pads, but they're just made of cloth. Right. And so they're, like, You know, a little bit more comfortable, and they're supposed to be better for the environment.

Melissa: 05:18

And one of the things that's happened recently is some of those companies have come under fire because It seems like they're containing PFAS in a level that would indicate that it was intentionally

Jam: 05:29

Not just like some random trace of it or something like that. Yes. Got it.

Melissa: 05:32

But it they had claimed that there weren't any toxic chemicals. So the people buying them bought them they were supposed to be a more environmentally friendly option, but then there's these chemicals in it that have this really bad rap. And so there's this whole, Big lawsuit settlement thing that happened.

Jam: 05:49

Right.

Melissa: 05:49

And so that was how it came up.

Jam: 05:51

K.

Melissa: 05:52

And in that conversation, one of my friends, Sarah, said, You should do an episode on this. And I was like, this is so overwhelming. How could I even process that to put it on an episode? And then I thought, if I feel that way And we're all chemists in this conversation. I can't really even think about how people without a background in chemistry might feel.

Jam: 06:15

Right.

Melissa: 06:15

And then I thought, it's really important now that I do this.

Jam: 06:19

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Especially if that is circulating right now And people are in this situation where they're like, I'm trying to make sense of this without really having any background at all. Yeah.

Jam: 06:30

And but it matters to me because, It's like, I need to buy products for my you know, I need to be informed by this, and I've maybe either been duped by saying there's no toxic things or whatever.

Melissa: 06:40

Yeah.

Jam: 06:41

Or somebody I know has? It's like it feels so suddenly, like, very relatable

Melissa: 06:45

Yes.

Jam: 06:46

And not just like a interesting science tidbit or whatever.

Melissa: 06:49

Definitely. So that's why I decided to do this episode. But I just think it's important to share that I do feel a little unqualified, and I feel like I can only work with the information I have right now, which we talk about a lot.

Jam: 07:01

Right.

Melissa: 07:02

And that is subject to change. So I kinda feel like you have to give this little preamble of even though I am an expert, I have a master's degree in organic chemistry and, you know, went on to get my PhD in chemistry education. It's like, I'm an expert, but I can only know so much as a human. Right.

Jam: 07:21

You know? You didn't make these underwear or make PFAS or any of those. You don't have, like, this, Like, deep, deep dive inside our knowledge of it. Yes. So you're having to yeah.

Melissa: 07:31

Yeah. And I have purchased those underwear before and wondered, like, How do these work? And they never got a satisfying answer. So Yep. I'm kinda not surprised.

Melissa: 07:40

But let's get into the beat of what PFAS are, where they're why are they called Forever chemicals, like you said, and what's going on with them.

Jam: 07:49

Okay. Sounds good.

Melissa: 07:50

That's what this episode's gonna be, a broad overview of what they are, why they're considered bad, And then what I kind of think about them, and then we'll talk more about the little nitty gritty things as we move through the series. Yep. Okay. So You said you remember we talked about, some of this on the Teflon episode. So can you tell me what you remember?

Melissa: 08:12

And listeners who I think we just replayed one of those episodes for our last, rerelease.

Jam: 08:18

Right.

Melissa: 08:18

So y'all can pause and also try to mentally summarize what you What you remember from that.

Jam: 08:24

Yep. Okay. So I remember us talking about you said your your question was specifically what are PFAS. Right?

Melissa: 08:38

Yes. Like Okay. But but in general, what you remember about Teflon because that is going to be

Jam: 08:43

Yeah. I remember that, the big scary part was the fact that the byproducts of making Teflon are the things that Seem to be toxic to stuff, and that's where some of those allegations came from. Yeah. And that at least the Teflon's not good for us to ingest, but the thing that got a lot of heat and a lot of attention was the byproducts of producing it. But I remember you talking about how what makes it and other things like it unique is something about the way that it will, Stick to itself really well and create this really good layer to itself and to whatever surface you're applying it to.

Jam: 09:29

But something about and this is where I I wish I have already released that episode, with our our listeners, but Makes it really not that interested in sticking to other things.

Melissa: 09:41

Yes.

Jam: 09:42

And at the molecular level, I forget what makes that possible, But that's why it's such a nice nonstick coating. Nice meaning, like, you know, that's why they've

Melissa: 09:51

Convenience.

Jam: 09:51

Convenient. They've made it for our for home use because of that. Because it it doesn't really want to come off the pan really. Yeah. But it, so it'll stay there, But it really isn't interested in bonding with or interacting with the, stuff we put in our pans Yeah.

Jam: 10:10

But But heat can still transfer through and still cook things. It's not like it's like this insulation barrier that also prevents Yeah. Cooking because then it wouldn't be good for cooking. It might be like, here's a nonstick pan, but it's really bad at cooking. So that's that's the gist of what I remember.

Melissa: 10:27

Do you remember anything about the chemical structure of it? What it what is it? Is it k if you don't?

Jam: 10:34

Is it a polymer?

Melissa: 10:35

It's always a polymer. Yep. Yes. It's a polymer. So that was a really good, I think, summary of some of the properties that make PFAS desirable.

Melissa: 10:47

Is there, in general, by chemists as being, not really reactive. So they're good for waterproofing. They're oil and grease resistant. But Let's talk about the underlying structure, and then we'll talk about the properties.

Jam: 11:02

Okay. Cool.

Melissa: 11:04

So I wanna say first that this is a Huge class of molecules. And some experts say that we can't just group them all together because there's They can be so different that some might be safer than others and some might have different properties than others. But for the most part, The definition I'm gonna give you applies.

Jam: 11:26

Okay.

Melissa: 11:26

Okay. So and then, you know, in the future, I can summarize more about why people think we should Break them down more and what seems safer or less, you know, forever than others.

Jam: 11:37

K.

Melissa: 11:38

But they are a polymer. And, Just to remind our listeners, a polymer is a small molecule that's made up of repeating or a large molecule that's made up of repeating units of small molecules. So My favorite reference is like a necklace that has repeating units over and over to make a whole necklace. It's these little individual beads.

Jam: 12:00

Got it.

Melissa: 12:01

So in this case, it's a polymer, and it's called p f a s because it's per or polyfluorinated alkyl substances.

Jam: 12:10

Okay.

Melissa: 12:11

So poly or per means there's multiple. Fluorinated, it means there's fluorine on it, and that's, a different kind of atom. An alkyl substances refers to, like, a carbon chain. So I'm gonna try to visualize This. And, actually, I think if you're listening with your ears, we're going to have one of our patrons, Bree, Go and animate for us what this looks like on our YouTube.

Melissa: 12:39

So if you're having a hard time visualizing it, You might check out the YouTube.

Jam: 12:46

We can

Melissa: 12:46

talk about that in a little bit. Yeah. But the way I think about this is if you imagine a chain of people all holding hands.

Jam: 12:53

K.

Melissa: 12:54

There's a long chain of people. Each one of those people is a carbon atom. Right?

Jam: 12:58

Mhmm.

Melissa: 12:58

And so they have 2 arms, and they're taken up by making this chain. K. Now imagine each of them also has 2 more arms. Like, maybe 1 sticking out of their chest and 1 sticking out of their back. Okay.

Melissa: 13:10

So you have, Bree's not gonna animate this. This isn't the part. It's the actual atoms. So if you had all these people holding hands in a chain, 2 of their hands would be taken up by holding onto other Hands. Uh-huh.

Melissa: 13:23

Quote, unquote, bonding to other, you know, of their same thing, other carbon atoms.

Jam: 13:28

Okay.

Melissa: 13:29

And then 2 of the hands would be Free to do something else.

Jam: 13:33

Okay.

Melissa: 13:34

So in a normal hydrocarbon chain where you have a carbon that repeats over and over, They're bonded to each other in a long chain. So the 4 bonds that carbon can make, 2 of them are taken up in this Chain.

Jam: 13:49

Mhmm.

Melissa: 13:49

But there are 2 other spaces that it could be bonded to something else. And, typically, that's either another carbon or another hydrogen or maybe some oxygen In in the chains that we call hydrocarbons.

Jam: 14:01

K.

Melissa: 14:01

We've talked about that a lot before.

Jam: 14:03

Right.

Melissa: 14:05

But in the case of Per or polyfluorinated atoms, instead of those being hydrogens, they, or sorry, per or polyfluorinated substances. Instead of those being hydrogen atoms, they swap them out for fluorine atoms.

Jam: 14:20

Okay.

Melissa: 14:21

So that's the big difference. Mhmm. So the out the alkyl is the Carbon chain.

Jam: 14:26

K.

Melissa: 14:27

And then the per or polyfluorinated is the spots that have fluorine instead of hydrogen.

Jam: 14:33

Okay.

Melissa: 14:34

So Teflon, if I remember correctly, is a chain of carbon atoms, and both of those 2 other spots that it could bond Are both taken up with fluorine. So it's just carbon with 2 fluorines, and that unit repeats over and over and over and over and over again. But other PFAS could have branches where it's, not just straight line of carbon, but there could be, You know, carbon coming off with 3 more florins off of it or with long big branching sections. You could replace 1 of the carbons with an oxygen atom In the chain, there's a lot of different little variations or little iterations that you could do

Jam: 15:15

Uh-huh.

Melissa: 15:15

That ultimately have very similar properties but are Different compounds.

Jam: 15:20

Right. Right.

Melissa: 15:21

So there are thousands of PFAS.

Jam: 15:24

Okay. And this has to be made? Right? I mean, is it, like, pretty uncommon for this to occur in nature where the fluorine is it fluorine?

Melissa: 15:33

Fluorine.

Jam: 15:33

Fluorine is there instead of hydrogen?

Melissa: 15:36

So PFAS are man made.

Jam: 15:39

Okay.

Melissa: 15:39

But I don't know if that's a I mean, carbons have to be bonded to fluorine sometimes.

Jam: 15:43

Yeah.

Melissa: 15:44

But I don't know about, like, Are there big polymers with that happening a lot in nature? I don't not that I can think of, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Jam: 15:52

Right. Okay. Got it.

Melissa: 15:55

And the other thing I was gonna say is we talked about polymers a lot on here. So we know even from talking about silicone that if they're shorter or longer, They could the chains could act differently.

Jam: 16:06

Mhmm.

Melissa: 16:07

Or if they're cross linked to each other or not, chains can act differently. So I'm The that's kind of part of what makes this intimidating is the scope of PFAS is literally thousands Of different chemicals. But, also, I think each of those chemicals would have different iterations of how they could be Used Mhmm. In manufacturing. So that's what a PFAS is.

Jam: 16:32

Okay.

Melissa: 16:33

And, hopefully, Our patron, Bree, is going to be able to make a a meaningful visualization of this and have some, like, lots of PFAS on the screen, maybe. We're we're trying to partner with her. She reached out to us because she loves science communication as much as we do and also because She really cares about this podcast, and she's also a scientific artist. She's a digital artist who focuses on science.

Jam: 16:58

Nice.

Melissa: 16:58

And she has a background in science. And so she could do the drawings of the chemical concepts really well and accurately because of that background. And so we really wanna support Her and thank her for taking the time to do that. So please, please, please go check her out. She's at McAllister Brie on Twitter, Or you can go to her ArtStation, which is it's Intropic, but the o is a 0.

Melissa: 17:24

Intropic.artstation.com, and we'll also link to that. Nice. Because we just wanna thank Bree and shout her out because it's amazing that she's willing to do this for us and that she is willing to Support the show that way and also to help spread chemistry and make it more accessible to even more people. So I wanted to pause for a moment and Shout that out. And then also if you're listening to let you know that we might start having more of these visualizations on YouTube depending on how that goes.

Jam: 17:50

Yep. Sweet.

Melissa: 17:51

So that's the basic idea of a PFAS, and I want you to explain that back to me as well as you can. And then we're gonna talk about, you know, Why they're supposed to be so helpful, what their properties are, why they're called forever?

Jam: 18:04

Okay. So a typical sort of, like, a common thing we talked about a bunch. It's a hydrocarbon

Melissa: 18:09

Mhmm.

Jam: 18:10

Chain, and that would normally be carbons linking arms. They're they're typical arms as as we do, you know, normal two arm situation.

Melissa: 18:19

Mhmm.

Jam: 18:20

But then they have a front arm and a back arm, sort of. Yeah. And that those arms typically would be, bonded to hydrogen.

Melissa: 18:30

Or other carbons.

Jam: 18:31

Or other carbons. Yeah. Yeah. But We would see this happen frequently with with carbon and hydrogen bind together to creating some Yes. Shape, some molecule.

Melissa: 18:40

And that occurs all the time in nature.

Jam: 18:42

Got it. Okay. And then in the case of PFAS, some at some point, we figured out that if instead of doing The hydrogens, we could do fluorine instead.

Melissa: 18:54

Yes.

Jam: 18:55

That the properties and it being different. There's some some benefits to it. This is it's a totally different deal Still being a polymer, but being a totally, there's some benefits to that. And and there's a lot of different structures within that category. Instead of just 1 long chain, you could have, like, branches off where they kind of becomes becomes a different shape, but still is including carbons and fluorines as the major player Yeah.

Jam: 19:20

And linking in that similar way.

Melissa: 19:22

Perfect. K. So you'd mentioned that they have some properties that make them valuable. They are water, heat, oil, and corrosion resistant.

Jam: 19:31

That's crazy.

Melissa: 19:32

It's crazy.

Jam: 19:33

Like, is this fluorine just like this super, Like Mhmm. Resistant element that is as soon as you put it in there, it's like, sorry.

Melissa: 19:42

So fluorine does have a special property of being the most electronegative element. So what that means is when it's in a bonding situation, it likes to pull the electron density as much To itself as possible. Uh-huh. And, one resource that I read indicated that that the nature of that makes it To where the carbons and fluorines are connected really well, and that makes it harder to break down. That makes it inert.

Melissa: 20:11

That makes everybody happy, so that that's essentially But it isn't so different from plastic. I mean, plastic, you know, isn't heat resistant, but it is water resistant. You know? And so I think and there's some plastics that They don't really break down in oil either. So I think part of it is also just the polymer nature of them.

Melissa: 20:32

Mhmm. But so that's a good question. Jen, I do think that that electronegativity of the fluorine probably plays a role. Yeah. We use them in fire extinguishers.

Jam: 20:42

We

Melissa: 20:43

use them in raincoats.

Jam: 20:44

Ah.

Melissa: 20:45

So if you have a waterproof raincoat, you very likely have some PFAS in your house. Yeah. The and on a lot of waterproof fabrics, which is why they're coming up as being in, reusable period products.

Jam: 20:57

Uh-huh.

Melissa: 20:58

There are also some in, one time use period products that I read some about as well. But they also are, A lot of times on fast food wrappers. If you have a really greasy burger and it's not letting that oil come through, it's because it's Very convenient to have a layer on it that is oil resistant. Right.

Jam: 21:21

You know what's crazy too the other day, we were having a a small, like, Plumbing thing kinda swapped out on our pool stuff. Mhmm. And the guy I was talking to, the repair guy, was talking about what he'd done and what he what some parts he still needed to get. And he said, and we'll put some Teflon on that and blah blah blah. And the just one of the the tubes of one of the things that they use to seal things Mhmm.

Jam: 21:40

And and stuff, they just call it Teflon. Yeah. Like, that's just their term. That's, like, doesn't say that on the tube, obviously. Yeah.

Jam: 21:46

Not just the the term that they've used for a long time. And I was like, uh-uh. Makes sense. It's like resistant to stuff. It's not gonna react, It can seal and be I guess, in this case, it's not trying to seal oil in, but it but water.

Jam: 21:57

Yeah. But still, it's, like, got all these

Melissa: 21:59

They're water resistant

Jam: 22:00

too. Yeah. Not wanting to react to stuff thing that makes it perfect for that? But I was like I wanted to be like, could you use, like is there a cast iron version of this you can use? Just kidding.

Melissa: 22:09

Nope. And that's. That is I think the problem is they're so, so useful.

Jam: 22:15

Mhmm.

Melissa: 22:16

And so they very rapidly became Came used in a number of different settings. And we talked about with Teflon that they were suspicious that things were happening as byproducts of Teflon. On. Mhmm. But it seems like maybe they also might be suspicious that things were happening with PFAS as well, the actual PFAS.

Melissa: 22:39

Yeah. So we're gonna talk more about that next week, but what I found about, PFAS that makes them a little bit more insidious than plastic is that they can bind to proteins in our blood. And so they can stay in our body for longer than a lot of other chemicals that we ingest. So I found a source that said it's, You know, some of my sources said 2 to 4 years, and another one of my sources says they they could last in for decades in our system. Wow.

Melissa: 23:08

And so that would mean that a very Low level of contamination of PFAS in our water systems, if we're consistently drinking it, for example, You don't need a lot to have a high concentration in your body and long term exposure. So that's what makes them really insidious. But similar to Plastics, you know, all this ability to not break down very much over time, that is what makes them useful, but that's also what makes them hard to get rid of. So that's why they're called forever Yeah.

Jam: 23:37

Right. Right.

Melissa: 23:38

Because they last, quote, unquote, forever in our body, but also they take a long time to break down in nature.

Jam: 23:43

Got

Melissa: 23:43

it. And they do sometimes degrade, but also their degradation products are concerning for our health too. Yeah. So That's not great.

Jam: 23:53

It's crazy how, like, their strength, the thing that made them appealing and interesting and why people decided to, like, develop them is, but that is also the big problem. It's like, Says this doesn't break down. This doesn't react to stuff. Isn't this awesome? And then it's like, uh-oh.

Jam: 24:05

Doesn't break down. It doesn't react to stuff. It's like, you think you're alive forever.

Melissa: 24:09

Yes. It reminds me so much of what we talked about with plastic. I feel like this is just I mean, if you broadly define plastics as a carbon containing molecule that's a polymer. You know? In a way, this is just another plastic.

Melissa: 24:23

Mhmm. So, The thing that makes plastics good and silicone good and PFAS good is that they don't react to stuff and they don't break down, but that's also what makes The bad.

Jam: 24:34

Yep. Yep.

Melissa: 24:36

So, yeah, I was I I don't think that forever chemicals is the best It's term because there are ways to break it down. And we talked a little bit of, like, with plastics that there's some microbes that can digest it. So Right. And I found some other things about ways that they can, they can break down some of these PFAS that we can talk about for sure Next episode. Mhmm.

Melissa: 24:59

But for now, I just wanted to maybe explain what they were and explain Why they're called forever chemicals and talk about how why they have this really bad rap is because they hang out in our bodies for longer. Yeah. And I think it's kind of there's not a ton of studies on this really yet, but the studies that do exist have linked them to higher cholesterol, To endocrine disruptors, which means they also can disrupt your immune system, and, ultimately, they're also linked to higher risk of cancer. So, you know and in animal experiments, it seemed like they were finding more, because it it binds to proteins in our blood to stay in our body. The higher concentrations are in places with more blood vessels.

Jam: 25:44

Right.

Melissa: 25:45

So, like, in our liver, for example. So One thing that it oh, sorry. I just hit the mic. One thing that it kinda reminded me of actually is We've talked very briefly about the radium girls, and maybe I could do a whole episode about it. But these were these women who, They were employed to paint clocks and other similar, like, small, detail work With radium paint.

Melissa: 26:15

And the scientists at that time pretty much already knew it was dangerous. Like, people could get radium burns, and they use PPE with radium. But the amount of radium in the paint was so small that it was considered harmless. And I think that that might be a little bit of the slant that we put on PFAS is, oh, there's not very much Match in our environment. And I have heard on the podcast I listened to from the chemical company, they said, oh, really low levels of this that we don't super have to worry about.

Melissa: 26:46

And you're like, yeah. They're really low levels. But if low levels can find a place to hang out in your body and keep exposing you, that's really scary.

Jam: 26:54

Right.

Melissa: 26:54

And that's what happened with the radium girls is They were ingesting this radium, you know, when they were they were using a technique called lip pointing to get the brushes as fine as possible. You know?

Jam: 27:04

Right. And so

Melissa: 27:05

they were ingesting radium, and it Acted like calcium and found places to hang out in their bones. Uh-huh. And then they were constantly being exposed to radiation.

Jam: 27:13

Yeah.

Melissa: 27:14

And so it It's not I do think the dose makes the poison, but that doesn't mean that low doses are always good. Because if it's low doses for a long time

Jam: 27:22

Mhmm.

Melissa: 27:23

That still

Jam: 27:24

Right? Can

Melissa: 27:24

be really bad.

Jam: 27:25

Repeated exposure. And also, like, the fact that it's considered safe, but has every level and every amount of exposure been tested? Like, Have you done it where you gave somebody a tiny amount of something for, like, every day

Melissa: 27:39

Yeah.

Jam: 27:39

Or every week

Melissa: 27:40

like that.

Jam: 27:41

Like, that's what's scary is that if we haven't tested it, and that's obviously, you could be scared of everything by that Right. Measure. But still, it's like, If we haven't tested everything or we don't haven't realized that it just stays in your body, but, yeah, you're only getting exposed to something for however often. But what if the last time is still there too?

Melissa: 27:58

And

Jam: 27:58

then it's like, okay. A little bit, but it keeps staying. It keeps staying.

Melissa: 28:01

Right.

Jam: 28:02

It just seems like one of those things that should be, Yeah. Vetted pretty carefully.

Melissa: 28:07

Yeah. And I think that's something that's, part of the reason why I can be pretty wary of new technology, but this doesn't Feel new to me because it's like raincoats. They raincoats with these coatings on them. You know? They've been around Since I was in high school.

Melissa: 28:24

You know? Probably even before that. That was the first time I remember being aware of them. Or, you know, maybe Teflon pans Feel a little bit newer, but, like, that's what we bought when we went to college. You know?

Melissa: 28:34

So it's like this feels like it's been around for A longish time, but, really, it's relatively new in terms of the development of them in human history. Mhmm. So That brings me to what my views are on them right now. As a chemist, I'm not a doctor. I don't have all the information.

Melissa: 28:54

I don't study PFAS. I think that they're bad, and I think you probably could guess that already from our Teflon series is I think the what the little we do know makes the unknown much scarier.

Jam: 29:12

It's

Melissa: 29:12

not like the little information we have is reassuring, which is a little bit more how I feel with silicone. Seems like the little bit we have is is actually a little concerning. Yeah. And I one of the questions in my mind and that maybe we can get answered through the course of this series is I don't know why they are active in our bodies. If If they're why they're binding to these proteins in our blood?

Melissa: 29:33

Because they're relatively inert, which I think is why they became so widespread so quickly as people thought these are inert. They must be bioinactive. Mhmm. Which is also what we think with silicone. Hopefully, that stays true.

Melissa: 29:43

Yeah. But they're not by they're not bioenerds. So I think that that is not a good sign. And, seeing someone in my life have cancer and die from it, it is Really scary.

Jam: 29:57

Yeah.

Melissa: 29:58

So the idea that it can make you higher risk for cancer is scary to me. The flip side of that is they're everywhere.

Jam: 30:04

Right.

Melissa: 30:05

So, realistically, this is very scary to me, but I don't know how to mitigate that.

Jam: 30:12

Right.

Melissa: 30:13

It's something that I think is really challenging, and that's why it's kind of been hard for me to wanna take this topic on because, You know, I can do things like avoid Teflon in my

Jam: 30:25

home Mhmm.

Melissa: 30:26

And try to eat out, you know, eat out for Have, like, fast food burger wrappers less, you know, or identify sources of PFAS that I might be ingesting Other than water, because I have to drink water and try to avoid them. And that's something that I can do partially because I have the knowledge and I have the finances. But for other people, you know, fast food, burger wrappers, other coated, packages that Things from leaking out is a much more affordable option.

Jam: 30:59

Yeah.

Melissa: 31:00

And so what recommend what recommendation do you make to those people?

Jam: 31:05

Right. Right. Yeah. It's not just like an easy hey. Swap this out for something equal and better at the same price?

Melissa: 31:13

Easily accessible.

Jam: 31:14

Easily accessible. Yeah.

Melissa: 31:16

So that's something that is hard for me to think about, and I think it should be hard for lots of people to think about. Yeah. I think that chemists are this is a little bit of the dark side of chemistry again, but also it's well, you guys made this, so you better figure it out. Chemists are working on ways to break down PFAS, but for now, They think that there is a lot of water sources that are contaminated with PFAS, especially more highly dense densely populated areas. But so what I do, Just for y'all 2¢, you know, is where I can, I try to not use plastic?

Melissa: 31:54

We've talked that before. Mhmm. And I try not to use I try to use glass as much as I can, and I try not to heat plastics. You know? That's how I avoid some of the exposure to plastic stuff.

Melissa: 32:06

For PFAS, I feel like I take calculated risks. Right? So, raincoats? I don't wear those all the time, but they are super useful when I do wear them. Mhmm.

Melissa: 32:18

I'm not likely ingesting raincoats. It's like even the waterproof layer is the outermost layer, so it's likely not touching my skin a ton.

Jam: 32:26

Right.

Melissa: 32:27

I will probably keep using those same raincoats unless you can get rubber coated raincoats again. I don't know that that's not widely made. You know? Yeah. Not really a financial option.

Melissa: 32:37

So in that situation, you know, that's what I do. I try to limit fast food intake anyway. I feel like I'm probably not coming a ton into contact with with that, in that scenario. But then with things like menstrual products, I think that is kind of a unique Problem too that people who don't messrate don't have to deal with. But I think for me, for a while, this is kind of getting personal information for a While I was on a birth control where I very rarely had to use any menstrual products.

Melissa: 33:09

So the risk of that was pretty low to me, like, once every few months.

Jam: 33:13

Right.

Melissa: 33:13

For a few days, and most likely, the waterproof layer is on the outside not touching my skin. This is a risk risk I'm willing to take. Knowing at that time that there was probably something suspicious in them to make them be so effective.

Jam: 33:29

Mhmm.

Melissa: 33:31

But now I've, changed that, and so having to think about that every month makes me think about it a little bit more.

Jam: 33:39

Right.

Melissa: 33:40

And it it is very much a question of how much will this negatively impact my life Versus, like, long term, will this impact my health? How can I avoid this? Versus what are the benefits of how convenient that these products are

Jam: 33:55

Mhmm.

Melissa: 33:55

And how widespread they are. And a little bit like, oh, we're already getting exposed to this consistently in our water sources, but part of where it comes from in our water sources is being washed off of clothing.

Jam: 34:06

Right.

Melissa: 34:07

And so it just is such a hard thing

Jam: 34:11

Mhmm.

Melissa: 34:12

To navigate and balance and think about. And so that's kind of where I am. I don't feel like I have good answers, but I do think about it and sort of take calculated risks of How am I contributing to this? In the future, I will probably work to buy period products that are not associated with PFAS as much as possible, but Even that is really hard to do because, you know, some manufacturers agree like, these 8 PFAS, these 8 major ones, we're not gonna use these. But there are thousands of other ones that could Used.

Melissa: 34:45

And so Right. Realistically, how do you know Mhmm. What's in some of those things? It's just really hard.

Jam: 34:54

Yeah.

Melissa: 34:56

So

Jam: 34:56

Yeah. I feel like these will be interesting conversations to think through and a A little scary too. One thing that I feel like is really nice when it happens is when there's enough information out there that the average person starts Knowing about it and thinking about it, there starts being a more more accountability on these organizations that are making products that include PFAS.

Melissa: 35:21

Yeah.

Jam: 35:21

And maybe even to a point where we get some, like, assurances, like, okay. We're just not using these entirely. Yeah. Or only in cases where there's not food, you know, not Yeah. Related to injections like that?

Jam: 35:35

But so then then that point, it's like, just informing people Ends up being kinda the best we can do. Yeah. Hoping that, like, at some point, it matters enough to the bottom line of businesses to, like, I don't know. Really help us know what's in what we're buying. Yeah.

Jam: 35:49

But it's like right now, like, who knows? Who knows how many there are in our daily lives? Yeah. We know of some of them. We could avoid those, but do we know are we really gonna look at how what makes up everything?

Melissa: 36:00

You know? And I'm even I have all the resources I could One of everyone being someone who actively studies PFAS for their job. Yeah. And I still have a hard time figuring things out. You know?

Melissa: 36:11

So I agree that. It's like, are we really even gonna be able to do this? The big thing that I would prioritize, if at all possible, is to try to avoid Internalizing things that you suspect contain PFAS as much as possible within your socioeconomic Situation

Jam: 36:29

Mhmm.

Melissa: 36:29

And your geographical location. Mhmm. You know, as within your means, if you can avoid internalizing that. So Yeah. Ingesting or using internal menstrual products, those are things that are going to be that it will expose you at a higher rate, That will expose that will expose you to internalizing that a little bit more.

Jam: 36:51

Mhmm.

Melissa: 36:51

And I don't even know. I'm like, I don't think there are filters that are gonna filter out PFAS in our water. You know? It'd be so nice. We'd be like, yep.

Melissa: 36:58

This will do it. Yeah. I'm not aware of a lot of those things right now, but we're on this journey together. I'm learning about them too. Mhmm.

Melissa: 37:06

So, yeah, it's kind of a, a little bit of a heavier topic. I was thinking this is one of the first times I'm like, I'm so excited for this topic. Right. I think it's really important, and I feel really, it's really, really I need to do this. I think we need to talk about some of this stuff, but it's not, like, exciting as some of our other ones are.

Melissa: 37:27

It's kind of We're back to a little bit of the dark side of chem

Jam: 37:31

Right. Right. Dark side. That's right.

Melissa: 37:34

Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. We could transition into a happy thing for this week or

Jam: 37:41

K.

Melissa: 37:42

We could maybe just, sit in some of these emotions. I thought I'd leave it up to you.

Jam: 37:48

Let's do happy thing.

Melissa: 37:49

Okay. You wanna try to bring your spirits back up.

Jam: 37:51

Yeah. Especially because this is gonna be multiple episodes of this. So we are gonna be sitting in Our That's

Melissa: 37:57

a good point.

Jam: 37:58

That is

Melissa: 37:58

a good point. So Okay. So all of our listeners, if you're feeling a little bit sad right now, pause, think of a happy thing. You can message it to us if once you're Driving your car or Yeah. Whatever you're doing, and we'd love to hear it.

Melissa: 38:10

But for now, Jam, what's your happy thing?

Jam: 38:12

So I alluded to this one last Weak, but I wanted to share with something different then. So I'll share out this time. But last weekend, my older brother and my mom came visited us and just hung out the weekend. And we just did a bunch of stuff. Like, we had a few things planned we had to do, and then they just joined us for some of those things.

Jam: 38:30

And then, we got through some fun stuff with them and catch up. And One one of the things we did on Saturday was we went to this the little water park here in town

Melissa: 38:38

Oh, yeah. With the kids. So cute.

Jam: 38:40

Yeah. It's cute. It's fun. And the kids had a lot of fun, and, and we did too. It's that was really cool.

Jam: 38:47

And just got to eat some good food and hang out together and and stuff. And I hadn't Hung out with my mom had come a couple months ago, but and then I saw my brother briefly a couple months before that or maybe a month before that, But they hadn't both come and hung out here in

Melissa: 39:01

That's a different vibe.

Jam: 39:02

Different vibe, but both of them, and that was a refund. So Yeah. Really enjoyed that. And, I had to work on some stuff at one point? But then him and my mom and brother were watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding, and I was working on something on the at the dining table nearby, and And it was just kind of fun having things going on in the house and having a full house for a little bit was pretty fun.

Jam: 39:25

So yeah.

Melissa: 39:27

Well, my heavy thing is also family related. Nice. I think I shared this last week. You already know about it.

Jam: 39:32

Mhmm.

Melissa: 39:33

But, so I got my new car, and I've been driving it around a lot because I have a brand new nephew. He's so cute, and he's so little. And, so and it's nice to have a safe car that I can drive back and forth. They live about an hour away, And so I've been going over there a little bit more and just, like, looking at him. He's so peaceful and sweet.

Melissa: 39:57

Just looking at babies Just gives you endorphins a lot of times.

Jam: 40:01

Totally.

Melissa: 40:01

And then we've also been able to hang out with my nephew more.

Jam: 40:05

Your The

Melissa: 40:06

Older nephew.

Jam: 40:07

Right.

Melissa: 40:08

My other nephew. I'm not used to that yet. Because, you know, it's a hard transition. Mhmm. In the 1st 4 to 5 years of your life, you We're the only one.

Jam: 40:18

Right.

Melissa: 40:18

And now suddenly, I think there's a lot of emotions associated with the fact that Not only is there someone else around, but it is a very demanding someone else. Right. Right.

Jam: 40:28

Yeah.

Melissa: 40:29

So it's hard. It takes a lot of the attention A few. And he's old enough to be definitely aware of the bad transitions happening.

Jam: 40:35

Yeah. Totally. That's hard.

Melissa: 40:38

It's hard.

Jam: 40:39

But cool you get to hang out with them and that you have a new nephew too. So

Melissa: 40:42

Yes. So that's my happy thing. It's very exciting. A sweet new little baby. And, also, I have really enjoyed getting to drive my car to go visit them.

Jam: 40:54

Yeah. Put some miles on it. Yeah. Nice. Put to good use.

Melissa: 40:58

Yeah. And thanks for, encouraging us to get a Hybrid because I get better gas mileage on that thing.

Jam: 41:06

I'm a big hybrid fan. Yeah. Yep.

Melissa: 41:10

So thanks, Jim, for that, and thanks also for, you know, for just looking at and thinking about PFAS for a little with me And for being open to this conversation, I think it'll be valuable, but I do think it's just gonna be cut. It's just kinda hard.

Jam: 41:23

Yeah.

Melissa: 41:23

Just hard to wrap your mind around it and to think about it too much.

Jam: 41:27

Well, thank you for teaching us about it and being willing to delve into some, the dark side of chemistry.

Melissa: 41:34

Yeah. I mean, it is my people, so I do feel low key Responsible. Like, oh

Jam: 41:38

Yeah.

Melissa: 41:39

You know, I gotta do my part as a

Jam: 41:41

chemist. Right.

Melissa: 41:42

Right. You know?

Jam: 41:43

Totally. A 100%. Yeah. That makes sense. But thanks for doing that.

Jam: 41:46

It's gonna be interesting. I'm excited about it, but I'm also I'm excited in the sense of I'm very curious because it matters. Yeah. But not like, Oh, cool, dude.

Melissa: 41:55

Yeah.

Jam: 41:56

You know? Yeah. So, anyway, if you have ideas, or questions about the world and you think the answer Could be commission related. We'd love to hear from you. Please reach out to us on our website atchem for your life.

Jam: 42:10

That's Kim, f o r, your life.com to give us your thoughts, ideas, or questions?

Melissa: 42:15

Mhmm.

Jam: 42:16

And if you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to patreon.com/ Chem for your life. Or tap the link in our show notes or the description to join our super cool community of patrons.

Melissa: 42:30

I love that.

Jam: 42:31

If you're not able to do that, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast app or rating and writing a review on Apple Podcasts or subscribing to our channel on YouTube. Those things all help us to share chemistry with even more people.

Melissa: 42:43

And, really, this episode would not be possible without our financial Supporters on Patreon. So it really means a lot to us that you all are willing to help make chemistry accessible. This week, we wanna give 2 special shout outs. 1 to Katrina h. Welcome to the community.

Melissa: 43:00

This episode's for you. Sorry it was a sad one. And, also, again, a shout out To Bree m who is going to start trying to do some animation or some digital artwork around our episodes. And be sure to go check out Bree M on Twitter and, their art station. And then We also wanna shout out Chelsea who works with PFAS as well, one of our patrons.

Melissa: 43:25

So works, testing for PFAS or at least She did a while ago. Okay. So those are a few special shout outs for our patrons. I also want to thank Avishai B, Brian K, Chris and Claire S, Derek L, Emerson W, Hunter R, Jacob T, Christina G, Lynn s, Melissa p, Nicole c, Nelly s, Steven b, Shadow, Suzanne p, Timothy p, and Venus r. Thank you all again so much for everything that you do to make chemistry free life happen.

Jam: 44:00

And if you'd like to learn more about today's chemistry lesson, you can check out the references Just for this episode in our show notes or the description of the video.

Melissa: 44:09

Heat chemistry.

Jam: 44:10

Heat chemistry.