Melissa: 00:00

Hey, Jam.

Jam: 00:00

Hey. What's up?

Melissa: 00:01

For this month's rerecord, you inspired me. Because in the last episode, we were talking about polymers, and we're talking about silicone. And then I thought, you just mentioned Teflon, and I don't think we've done that episode as a rerelease.

Jam: 00:16

We haven't, but it's one of our favorite ones. You and I talk about that episode all the time.

Melissa: 00:20

All the time.

Jam: 00:21

And there's probably people who haven't dug back in the feed to find it, And that's a shame.

Melissa: 00:26

And it's a really it was a powerful moment for me in the podcast and learning, you know, my, chemical predecessors, some of the travesties they did. So

Jam: 00:37

Yeah. It's a tough one, but it's so interesting.

Melissa: 00:40

So interesting and so beneficial to know. Yeah. And relevant because people are phasing Teflon out.

Jam: 00:45

Totally. Yes. Yep. So listen and enjoy to this episode if you haven't already, or if it's been a WASD, you listen to it. Listen.

Jam: 00:53

Again, it's super interesting and great, and we love it.

Melissa: 00:56

Yeah. We love chemistry.

Jam: 00:58

Yeah. Totally. I'll be back next week with that brand new episode.

Melissa: 01:01

That's right. See you next week.

Jam: 01:03

Happy listening.

Melissa: 01:04

Happy listening. Hey. I'm Melissa.

Jam: 01:16

And I'm Jam.

Melissa: 01:17

And I'm a chemist.

Jam: 01:18

And I'm not.

Melissa: 01:19

And welcome to chemistry for your life.

Jam: 01:21

The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.

Melissa: 01:26

Okay, Jam. I've done it to you again.

Jam: 01:29

Wait. Done what?

Melissa: 01:31

I started to write an episode and then realized that it needed to be 2 episodes.

Jam: 01:37

I'm fine with that. This seems like you're making it sound like you've you've, I don't know, caused a huge inconvenience to me or something. But

Melissa: 01:44

I feel like I tricked I'm like, we're gonna record, and then I'm like, we're gonna record 2.

Jam: 01:50

Well, I mean, I think that's fun. So It's plus, like, like, any story that's 2 or 3 or more parts had a chance of being much more grand and much more exciting. So

Melissa: 02:01

that's true.

Jam: 02:02

Seems seems like the idea of there being 2 a 2 part episode also has that same potential.

Melissa: 02:08

That same grandiosity?

Jam: 02:10

Yes. But as long as you can promise on that and, like, promise beyond the shadow of a doubt that it's gonna be that grand, like, as grand as, say, like, lord of the rings or something like that, some really important story. Then I'm

Melissa: 02:22

in. Yeah. Definitely. This this 2 part, maybe 80 minute total less than 80 minute total episode series is gonna be as good as Lord of the Rings for sure.

Jam: 02:33

Wow. Wow.

Melissa: 02:34

No. No. Don't. That was false information.

Jam: 02:37

Heard it here first.

Melissa: 02:38

Okay. So here's where this came from.

Jam: 02:42

Okay.

Melissa: 02:42

This was prompted by a listener and friend of the podcast, Erica Davis LLC. Erica Davis Fitness.

Jam: 02:52

Oh, nice.

Melissa: 02:53

So Erica advertised on her show, but she also listens to the show. Nice. And let me tell you, this is not an ad. I've been doing her workouts lately, and they kick my butt. They really are good, so go check her out on Instagram.

Melissa: 03:10

But she messaged me and asked me about Teflon pan. She asked, are they safe? She asked a few other questions. She asked if they're safe, if you can use oil on them. Mhmm.

Melissa: 03:23

And she said, I thought I heard about some Teflon Danger back in the eighties when it was discovered that their chemicals are causing cancer and birth defects, but we still have nonstick pans. Are they safe to use? And then she also asked about oil on nonstick pans. Soap. Mhmm.

Melissa: 03:40

Mhmm. And I knew a little bit about Teflon, but I learned a lot from this, a lot about sort of the history of it. So what I decided to do was, first, do an episode explaining why nonstick pans are not sticky.

Jam: 03:57

Okay.

Melissa: 03:58

And then 2nd, answer her questions about safety and then this back in the eighties, what was going on with these things that we heard.

Jam: 04:07

Mhmm.

Melissa: 04:07

Because I felt like how Teflon pans work all on their own is pretty interesting, but I didn't think we could fit all the history into 1 episode. And I think it's interesting stuff. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: 04:21

So It kinda gets into the dark side of chemistry.

Jam: 04:24

Is Teflon like, obviously, I hear that word a lot, but is that the, like, most common nonstick pan that we Have most of us interacted with?

Melissa: 04:35

I'm not positive. I mean, yes. I know that Teflon is the first, and it was copyrighted or whatever it's called. What is it called when you invent something anew?

Jam: 04:46

Patent.

Melissa: 04:47

Yeah. It was patented or trademarked or something like that, patent probably, by DuPont, which is a big chemical company. I know I have met people who've worked with DuPont before, and it was created by DuPont when they were working on something else, actually, refrigerants, I think. And had all these properties, so they were like, this is great. I'm gonna go ahead and use this, and then all this other stuff came out.

Melissa: 05:13

So but Teflon is probably the main one. I don't know how I'd even look into be like, is this DuPont Teflon, or is this something else? But they were definitely the first. Mhmm. Okay.

Melissa: 05:25

But right now, we're just gonna talk about the molecular structure of it.

Jam: 05:28

Okay.

Melissa: 05:29

K. This goes all the way back to intermolecular forces. All the way back. It's the return of the return of intermolecular forces.

Jam: 05:40

Oh, man. This is kind of a saga if you think about it. I mean, we already had a lot of, like, the force Star Wars kinda jokes about intermolecular forces. And then they're coming back.

Melissa: 05:50

Intermolecular forces be with you.

Jam: 05:52

Yeah. And they're coming back again again.

Melissa: 05:54

It's like the tri trilogy aspect, sort of Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay. This is gonna be the new episode of intermolecular forces. Except that

Jam: 06:03

we live in a universe where intermolecular forces are a part of it all the time. So the story goes on. It's the infinite trilogy. It's the whatever you wanna say.

Melissa: 06:14

Okay.

Jam: 06:15

Right?

Melissa: 06:16

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about it as, like but also the midichlorians. You know? The force is always present in their universe, but but we don't we're not in the Star Wars universe as we're experiencing the story.

Melissa: 06:29

So I agree. Okay. So we're going all the way back to intermolecular forces. And for those of you who maybe are new to listening or haven't listened in a while to our earlier episodes, intermolecular forces, we talk about in what's the scientific word for sticky. We briefly talked about them, I think, in the very first episode about how soap works, and then we talked about it in why does water form droplets, I think too.

Melissa: 06:57

So intermolecular forces are literally just the forces between molecules, intermolecular between molecules. And there's a few different kinds of intermolecular forces that we've talked about. So there's the kind where molecules individual molecules have positive and negative parts built in, like permanent.

Jam: 07:16

Mhmm.

Melissa: 07:16

We call them poles, dipoles. And then there's a kind where things are pretty much equally shared. But when that kind of molecule comes into contact with another molecule, there's a temporary, like, the it induces it to have a positive and a negative part.

Jam: 07:32

Is that 1 dispersion?

Melissa: 07:35

Yes. I can't believe you remembered that.

Jam: 07:37

Did the the also the one I think you said the sticky ones, but then also specifically the gecko one of those. Mhmm. That was really interesting. Guys, if you haven't heard that one,

Melissa: 07:47

It's Oh, yeah. How do geckos walk on walls? Right?

Jam: 07:50

The the forces are there in that case too. So that one's pretty cool.

Melissa: 07:54

They're all over the place. So those are the 2 main ones we've talked about. We've talked about molecules that are polar Mhmm. Molecules that are nonpolar. And then a special type of dipole moment bonding is a hydrogen bonding, which is basically just the strongest kind of intermolecular force.

Melissa: 08:13

It's called bonding, but it's not bonding, which is confusing for students and nonstudents alike. Drives me crazy. I if I could change I would change a lot of things. But if I could just, like, snap my fingers and change one thing about chemistry everywhere as I would call it hydrogen intermolecular forces. I don't know why that would be so hard.

Melissa: 08:36

Why do we confuse people calling it bonding? Okay. Rant over.

Jam: 08:39

Well, maybe even just, like, hydrogen forces. Like and that's still kind of freezing, but it's short enough. And it's Hydrogen forces.

Melissa: 08:45

Yeah. Gosh, I'm with you, Jam. That was a good one. Okay. But we didn't talk about something within that.

Jam: 08:55

Mhmm.

Melissa: 08:55

And I I remember my students being a little confused by this at the beginning of the last semester. But it is possible if you have a neutral molecule that doesn't have built in positives and negatives, but the individual bonds within the molecule can be polar bonds.

Jam: 09:13

K.

Melissa: 09:15

So you can have polar bonds in a nonpolar molecule. So let's think about this. If you have 2 atoms that are the same, like 2 fluorine atoms. They're gonna be pulling. If they're holding hands and sharing their electrons, they'll be putting the exact same amount of pressure from both sides, and it'll be equal opposite poles.

Jam: 09:37

Mhmm.

Melissa: 09:38

So the electrons will be equally shared.

Jam: 09:41

K.

Melissa: 09:41

Right?

Jam: 09:42

Right.

Melissa: 09:43

So if you had just f 2, a fluorine molecule, it's only made up of 1 bond. That 1 bond is not polar and neither is the molecule.

Jam: 09:52

Okay.

Melissa: 09:53

Okay. But now I want you to imagine you yourself as a human being

Jam: 09:58

Okay.

Melissa: 10:00

And you're holding hands with 1 person. If that person yanks on you, you're gonna go in that direction.

Jam: 10:08

Mhmm.

Melissa: 10:10

If you're holding hands with 2 people and both people yank on you equally hard at the same time, you're not gonna go anywhere.

Jam: 10:17

Right.

Melissa: 10:20

That is what it means when you have polar bonds, but they cancel each other out to make a nonpolar molecule.

Jam: 10:27

Oh, interesting.

Melissa: 10:29

So when carbon is bonded to something like hydrogen, it pretty much doesn't have a pull on one side or the other. They're just holding hands equally. No one's yanking to one side or the other. But when carbon is bound to fluorine, there's a strong pull towards fluorine. Fluorine is very electronegative, which means it pulls electrons towards it really tightly and close.

Melissa: 10:53

Mhmm. So it's gonna pull as much electron density. You know, the electrons exist in the cloud. It's gonna pull as much of the electron shared between the 2 bonds as it possibly can to itself.

Jam: 11:06

That that's fluorine, you said?

Melissa: 11:07

That's fluorine.

Jam: 11:08

Okay.

Melissa: 11:09

So if you have a carbon and it's bound to fluorine on one side, and that's the only bond you have, carbon and fluorine, that's a very polar bond.

Jam: 11:17

Okay.

Melissa: 11:18

But if you have a carbon with fluorine on the opposite side, 2 sides pulling in the opposite directions

Jam: 11:25

Mhmm.

Melissa: 11:26

Those are 2 polar bonds, but it's a neutral molecule.

Jam: 11:31

Got it. Okay. So that that really intense holding on is kind of happening just within that molecule now and not trying to happen outside of the molecule. Like, It's almost like, yeah, a mom and 2 kids going through Mhmm. A busy mall.

Jam: 11:51

She's holding on tight to her kids, and they're navigating through a crowd or whatever. And that really tight grip that she's got going on is just between her and her kids and not, at least at the moment, Not that those forces aren't trying to pull other people toward it. That makes sense.

Melissa: 12:13

Yes. That's exactly right.

Jam: 12:14

Okay.

Melissa: 12:16

That's a really good analogy. I'm really impressed.

Jam: 12:19

I was just trying to think, like, how else how else do you like, your hands people holding hands thing, but then how do you I was trying to make sure that it they're not that then that neutralizes kind of like they're not trying to grab onto anybody.

Melissa: 12:33

Yeah. I also kinda think about it as tug of war. If because bonds are basically just made up of electrons shared between 2 things. Right? So if you have this rope that represents the electrons and there's a flag for, like, it being perfectly shared in the middle between the 2 Mhmm.

Melissa: 12:53

Then if you pull on one side, the flag's gonna move towards that thing, and that's a polar bond.

Jam: 12:59

Mhmm.

Melissa: 13:00

But if you this is where it kinda breaks down to get into the polar molecule. If you had something else that starts pulling back again the opposite way it's just all chemistry is all about electrons, man. And in this case, we're talking about the way the electrons move inside the molecule Mhmm. But how that chain doesn't change the overall polarity of the molecule like you said. Yeah.

Melissa: 13:35

Okay.

Jam: 13:35

Gosh. It's interesting. There's layers. There's always layers.

Melissa: 13:38

There's always layers. So Teflon is a polymer. Do you remember you can put what I just said about the molecules on the shelf, and we're gonna go to to Teflon now.

Jam: 13:50

Okay.

Melissa: 13:51

Okay. So you got your molecules, your polar bonds, and your polar molecules there on the shelf, and we're gonna examine Teflon, which is a polymer. And we talked about polymers.

Jam: 14:05

In

Melissa: 14:05

I don't remember which episode.

Jam: 14:06

Maillard?

Melissa: 14:08

My reaction. Yes.

Jam: 14:10

So brown stuff or whatever is what we call that one, I think.

Melissa: 14:12

Why does toast get toasty?

Jam: 14:14

Oh, yeah. And then also, wasn't the polymer the apples?

Melissa: 14:18

Yes, apples are polymers too. And I wanna remind you, you said this, and I remembered it because it was so good, that a polymer is a big molecule made up of a bunch of repeating small molecules.

Jam: 14:33

I'm glad that you remember that. That's

Melissa: 14:36

it's so good.

Jam: 14:36

It's helpful for me to to hear my own thing again.

Melissa: 14:41

So it's just a bunch of repeating units. So it was like a b c, a b c, a b c, a b c, and they're all bonded together in 1 long chain. Got it. That's a polymer.

Jam: 14:50

Okay. Man, I'm so glad that you reminded me and also with my own words because, like, sometimes like, you know how you you find a note you wrote to yourself or something, like, a little sticky note? Yeah. Hearing it from yourself, like, your past self trying to be like, listen. Don't drink this.

Jam: 15:03

This one this this is the old You know? This is the old ketchup. Don't use this one or something like that. I don't know.

Melissa: 15:09

Right.

Jam: 15:09

It's just like, ah, yes. Right. Of course. My past self is trying to protect me.

Melissa: 15:14

You understand the way your brain works. So when you hear your own words, you're like, yep. I got this.

Jam: 15:18

Okay. So a b c, a b c, a b c. Got it. Okay.

Melissa: 15:21

Right. It's a repeating unit.

Jam: 15:22

Right.

Melissa: 15:22

So in the case of Teflon, it instead of a b c a b c, it's a repeating unit of a carbon bonded to 2 fluorines. And then that's bonded to another carbon. It's bonded to 2 fluorines. And that's bonded to another carbon. It's bonded to 2 fluorines.

Melissa: 15:37

And it just goes on and on and on like that.

Jam: 15:39

Okay.

Melissa: 15:40

So it's a polymer made up of that 1 unit. They call it oh, I can't remember. It's like a monomeric polymer or something like that.

Jam: 15:48

And that's the that's the I know you put the intermolecular forces on the shelf, the polarity stuff on the shelf, but Mhmm. This is that same molecule, right, that is Really good bonding together, but is not polar as a whole. Like, it's not It's made up of polar bonds Mhmm. But it is not trying to get all polar with other folks.

Melissa: 16:17

Right. So and Teflon is extra special because fluorine is the the measure of how closely the electrons are held in. Like I said before, it's called electronegativity. Uh-huh. So fluorine is the most electronegative atom.

Jam: 16:31

Okay. Wow.

Melissa: 16:32

So fluorine holds electrons towards it better than anyone else.

Jam: 16:37

Okay.

Melissa: 16:38

So you've got this Teflon polymer, and it's basically a carbon chain surrounded by fluorines.

Jam: 16:43

Mhmm.

Melissa: 16:45

And those fluorines are holding electrons so tight to each other that, basically, when 2 of those molecules come in close or when that molecule comes in close to another one, it's barely gonna induce that polarity at all. Mhmm. Because it's holding its electrons so tight, it will not do its normal dispersion forces. What are you thinking?

Jam: 17:11

Just trying to get my head around it. But so it's you said it's holding on so tightly that it won't do its Normal forces. So, basically, it's kind of commandeered all the available force or something. I don't know.

Melissa: 17:27

Well so we talked about dispersion forces, which are just the forces that are temporary when 2 molecules come near each other. Right?

Jam: 17:38

Mhmm. So

Melissa: 17:40

in the case of Teflon, if it comes near another molecule, it's holding on so tight to its electrons with those fluorines that it does barely any temporary polarity at all.

Jam: 17:53

Got it. I was not zooming out to see how that's gonna end up being helpful to Food related stuff. I was just, like, still way in there, molecularly.

Melissa: 18:06

Right. Okay. Okay. So zooming back out. So we know that Teflon is this carbon chain surrounded by fluorines.

Melissa: 18:14

And so even though those individual bonds are very polar and tightly held together, the overall molecule is just neutral

Jam: 18:22

Mhmm.

Melissa: 18:22

Because they're pulling in opposite directions, so all of that cancels out. So it's a very nonpolar molecule, and it's holding on so tightly. The fluorines are holding on so tightly to the electrons Mhmm. That they can't really move around at all when it comes into contact with another molecule.

Jam: 18:41

Got it.

Melissa: 18:42

So there's not gonna be very many intermolecular forces between Teflon and anything else because it's holding on so tight to its electrons.

Jam: 18:52

Okay. Got it. Yeah. Interesting.

Melissa: 18:55

The word for that, the ability to, sort of the electrons to shift around when it comes near something else is called polarizability.

Jam: 19:04

Woah.

Melissa: 19:05

And Teflon basically has none.

Jam: 19:08

Okay.

Melissa: 19:08

Okay. So because of that, Teflon it doesn't interact with anything else.

Jam: 19:15

Man.

Melissa: 19:16

And that's why it's nonstick.

Jam: 19:18

Man. That's crazy.

Melissa: 19:21

I know.

Jam: 19:23

Like, it's weird how kind of I mean, it's it's not simple. But it's weird how at the molecular level, it's it is kind of simple, And then the result is something that for us is an everyday, like, usefulness that

Melissa: 19:39

I know. Isn't that crazy kind of

Jam: 19:40

like all these things end up being the byproduct of inherent chemistry. You know?

Melissa: 19:47

Yeah. It really is like you're saying, oh, this is so simple. But the very first time we talked about intermolecular forces, it was not simple.

Jam: 19:53

And this isn't this isn't even really that simple at all, but it just I think it's kind of like The application of it to get food that's not sticks to stuff is Mhmm. You kinda think like, man, that must be hard or complicated. But

Melissa: 20:07

Right.

Jam: 20:08

The the molecules are doing something super complicated that we aren't in charge of. We're just kind of taking advantage of, I guess, is what I mean. So it's not like Yeah. Scientists found some, like, god particle that they harnessed into a made into a pan. I don't know.

Jam: 20:27

You know what I mean? It's like they just

Melissa: 20:28

Right.

Jam: 20:28

This is a thing that already happens, and we are using it to our advantage is kind of, I guess, what I mean.

Melissa: 20:34

Yeah. So that's pretty much it. That's how Teflon pans work is they create a polymer, and they put it on the stainless steel or aluminum pan or whatever. Mhmm. And that basically creates a barrier that is not able to basically interact molecularly with anything else really.

Jam: 20:56

Mhmm.

Melissa: 20:57

And so things don't stick to it.

Jam: 21:00

Mhmm.

Melissa: 21:01

And we can just wash them off away.

Jam: 21:03

Okay. I think I got it. So, basically, like, we started with the intermolecular forces. Just good to know That, in in this case, fluorine, super, super strong, electronegativity, which means it wants to draw Electrons to itself.

Melissa: 21:22

Right. It's selfish.

Jam: 21:24

Very selfish because it it lacks a lot. Right? Is that normally how it

Melissa: 21:30

Is? I mean, that's kind of, more complicated answer. Most people will learn about connectivity and why it is the way it is in 1st semester of chemistry. I think it would be, too confusing and off topic for our conversation today to try to dig into that.

Jam: 21:49

Got it. Okay. Got it.

Melissa: 21:51

I mean, we can talk about it, but I think it would just be like, okay. Now we're getting into atomic trends and how an atom builds up and all that, and that might not be as fun as, talking about Teflon. So Right. Right. We can save that for another day, I think.

Jam: 22:05

Okay. That sounds good.

Melissa: 22:06

Great.

Jam: 22:07

So it's very electronegative. And in this case, it is What it is drawing to it is carbon. Right? And Whenever you have a situation It Go ahead.

Melissa: 22:24

It might be maybe a little bit more accurate to say is drawing to it the electrons in the shared bond with carbon.

Jam: 22:31

Got it. Got it.

Melissa: 22:32

But I think it does bring the carbon itself closer too. I think those stronger bonds will

Jam: 22:36

Mhmm.

Melissa: 22:37

Bring you closer together.

Jam: 22:39

So it really wants, in this case, carbon's electrons, which

Melissa: 22:43

mhmm,

Jam: 22:44

draws carbon to it, and they they bond together. And even though that really strong electronegativity that fluorine has is super strong. Once it is in a situation, like, we've been talking about it, where it has 2 fluorines and 1 carbon. They're so is that right?

Melissa: 23:04

Yeah.

Jam: 23:06

They're so in their own zone and, like, really strongly attached to each other that they, are not worried about trying to draw any other electrons to themselves. They're like, we've got our carbon. We are we've got what we want. We only have eyes for carbon.

Melissa: 23:27

That's a good way to put it that we only have eyes for carbon because, yeah, the pulling so hard on each of the florins pulling so hard, but they're pulling against each other that they're not going anywhere.

Jam: 23:39

Yeah.

Melissa: 23:40

So it makes the overall molecule so nonpolar that it's not interacting with anything else. Mhmm. So even though those bonds individually are very like, a negative positive going on. They just cancel each other out, and so they're like, we are totally happy. We don't need to have any induced dipole nor can we even

Jam: 24:02

Yeah. And and then they're in this happy situation, and so you get that's that's just 1 looking at one Molecule of carbon into fluorines. Right? But

Melissa: 24:14

Yeah. And so in real life, carbon needs 4 things bonded around it. So it usually is carbon, 2 fluorines, and then 2 carbons opposite each other. And those 2 carbons have 2 fluorines and then a carbon on either side of it, so it's a chain of carbons. But if you just zoomed in on 1 carbon, you could see those 2 fluorines attached to it, and then it'd be holding hands with other carbons off to the side.

Melissa: 24:36

But those also kinda cancel each other out. So that's a little, you know Got it. Deeper than you need to go. So I think just talking about imagining one carbon with the 2 things pulling on opposite sides is the easiest way to think about it.

Jam: 24:50

Got it. Got it. It's a lot easier to think about a mom with 2 kids than to try to think about A mom and dad and 4 kids trying to navigate them all. It's like

Melissa: 24:58

Yeah. It'd be it'd have to be a mom with, like, 4 hands exactly opposite from each other pulling in exactly opposite directions. So that's too confusing.

Jam: 25:06

Yeah. Most moms wish they had that many arms, but they do not.

Melissa: 25:10

That's so true. Moms are like, man, that'd be great.

Jam: 25:13

Yeah. They're like, man, if only I was if only I was a Molecule or whatever. I don't know.

Melissa: 25:19

If only I was carbon and could make 4 bonds instead of just 2.

Jam: 25:24

So mom's moving through the mall, with the kids. And the bonds are so strong that the the eyes, the effort is all concentrated on staying together that they are just not concerned about The other elements and other electrons around, they're focused on each other kinda thing.

Melissa: 25:49

Yeah.

Jam: 25:51

They made a polymer out of just tons of this exact thing repeating over and over and over and over and over and over and over. So

Melissa: 25:59

Right.

Jam: 26:00

Just this coat of this stuff. So you've got all these moms with their kids Moving to the mall. And so even if you crack an egg on top of these moms, they are so only worried about Getting through the crowd with their kids that they there's no dispersion forces or no other kind of forces available, to interact with this egg.

Melissa: 26:32

I love how you make sure, metaphors there. But that's right. And I almost think of it as like a force field. So these these fluorine atoms are so nonpolarizable. They they just can't be wiggled around because the flooring's holding on so tightly Yeah.

Melissa: 26:51

That you just create, like, a a force field almost above the top of you, and nothing can get in. You know, it's just we're not interested. It's we're there's very little interaction that's gonna happen. It's like, we're not worried about it. We're just totally holding on to our own things, and therefore, we're not very polarizable.

Jam: 27:13

Yeah. Like, when you were explaining that part earlier, I was kinda thinking about, Like, somebody who's, like, newly in love, like, smitten. They're like

Melissa: 27:21

Yeah.

Jam: 27:21

There's just like this force field going on where they're just like The goo goo for this 1 person or whatever. And so in this case, if it was like that, It's like there's just no way for something to get in here. It's as if that that, like, really early, like like, Overwhelmingly smitten kind of stage. Is it it's as if that stage of love was just permanent, and that intense for this coating on the pan where nothing can break into it. Nothing can, like Or whatever.

Jam: 27:57

And I'm not that's not a statement about love. It's just, like, that level of intensity where it's like, oh, I can only think about and, like, focus on this other person. It just Nothing else matters. Nothing else in my entire life matters. And then it's like cracking an egg, throwing the bacon, whatever it is you're putting on there.

Jam: 28:15

Obviously, our foods are a lot of made up of a lot of different things, but it doesn't matter in this case because there's that force field. Doesn't this not trying to interact any other thing.

Melissa: 28:26

Right. I think that's a pretty good explanation. It's kind of hard to come up with a good, I think, perfect metaphor because it's so many layers. Yeah. But just to, like, sort of zoom back out and remind you of, like, we talked about intermolecular forces.

Melissa: 28:46

And so this is a nonpolar molecule. But most nonpolar molecules will come together and have an instantaneous dipole with one another. But this is an also nonpolarizable molecule.

Jam: 29:00

Mhmm.

Melissa: 29:01

So it can't even really do that. I mean, it can to some extent, but not a lot. And you can see that play out once you coat a Teflon pan. Because if you put water on it, it rolls right off. But if you put oil and grease, it sticks to it a little bit better.

Melissa: 29:18

And that's because the nonpolar can a little bit interact with other nonpolars, not very effectively, and all of it will come off easily.

Jam: 29:26

Right.

Melissa: 29:27

So there's layers of that. So you learned your you learned a new thing, and you combined old things with the new thing. Yeah. I think because it's kind of a, complex one. I just felt better about coming back and, kinda pointing out some of this stuff and how it all works together.

Jam: 29:46

So multiple things. It's not like One explanation that's going on in in molecular. It's like a compounding of multiple. That's so crazy.

Melissa: 29:55

Right. So there's 1 question that it didn't even occur to me, I guess, to ask until I found an article about it. And that is if Teflon doesn't stick to anything, how do we stick it to the pan?

Jam: 30:10

Holy that Oh my gosh. Seriously.

Melissa: 30:15

It's a really complicated process, but, basically, they chemically treat one side. So they alter part of the polymer and stick it on there. There's a Scientific American article about it, and it was not interesting enough for me to wanna Cher is, like, too complicated. Would have been too hard. But I thought, yeah, why aren't we all asking that question?

Jam: 30:35

Yeah. Gosh. That is interesting.

Melissa: 30:38

So maybe one day I can go and and find a good story in the saga of how you stick Teflon to something when Teflon doesn't stick to anything. But

Jam: 30:49

That's that's one of those things where it's like

Melissa: 30:51

Not today.

Jam: 30:52

I love that question. Even if the the answer's, like, A lot to go into. It kinda reminds me of the part in the movie in, like, some movie. I can't think of what or may maybe many, Where the characters are like, wait a second. If we're back here, then who's driving the bus?

Jam: 31:10

Like, that kinda question, like, and then they realized that the bus is, like, careening off a cliff. Or

Melissa: 31:15

Or, like, Pirates of the Caribbean where he's like, no survivors. Then where do the stories come from? Yeah. And you're like, yeah. Where do these stories come from?

Jam: 31:24

Yeah. It's like a kind of it's like a really frustrating question almost. It's like, wait. Yeah. So can I trust anything?

Jam: 31:30

Like, how can we get this to get to stick to the pan? Like, what good is it to have this awesome polymer if we can't get it stick to anything?

Melissa: 31:37

Right.

Jam: 31:37

Even the ones we wanted to stick it to. It's like, why can't we just pick and choose? Which I guess they did figure out how to do that.

Melissa: 31:42

Yeah. Okay, so

Jam: 31:46

There were no survivors.

Melissa: 31:48

There were no survivors. Where do the stories come from? Well, that's pretty much it. That's all I've got for you in terms of science today, so thanks for coming and learning about that. And do you wanna tell me something fun about your week?

Jam: 32:01

Anytime and yes. So this week, something that's kind of cool that I really ended up enjoying is Em and I are trying to get our nursery ready.

Melissa: 32:14

Oh, yeah.

Jam: 32:15

And so we've had More time on our hands, but also some things are harder to do. Like, you know, a lot of people are posting stuff about, like, products around the house. We're not the handiest people in the world, But something we'd be wanting to do anyway, because, well, ready or not, our baby's coming. And so Right. We've been dragging our feet because we, needed to paint in here.

Jam: 32:37

And it's a small room, but that's what I'm recording right now, which is why I said in here. And, it's just a horrible yellowy color, and we've already gotten rid of this color in other parts of our house. And so it's just like, another yet another area where we have to get Rid of this really bad, like, buttercream color. So

Melissa: 32:58

Yeah.

Jam: 32:59

This week, we,

Melissa: 33:00

I think buttercream is less yellow than your walls.

Jam: 33:03

It it might be. I just it feels like there's a lot of like, I don't know what else to describe it as. It's like a very creamy, buttery, like, look to it. And then people say cream, and it's, like, more like white. Like, it's just slightly not white.

Jam: 33:18

This is

Melissa: 33:18

like But this is pretty yellow.

Jam: 33:19

Yeah.

Melissa: 33:20

It's like almost like whipped butter.

Jam: 33:22

Mhmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, this week, we Really started working on that, and I finished a full, 2 coats of just the main walls, and then we're gonna Paint the trim and the shelves and stuff like that in here.

Jam: 33:39

But what was just nice about it is I think I just really enjoyed it because it was doing something with my hands, And I've been a lot of us have been way, way, way more on computer and phone than we already normally are, which is Yeah. Pretty high already. And so coming in here and my wife's practice, but she can't paint. And so it's just me alone, but doing some with my hands and just focusing on a task was very, very physical. And I was, like, listening to podcasts and music while I was doing it.

Jam: 34:06

It was just, like, strangely very enjoyable. Yeah. And so I was trying to I'm trying to take advantage of that momentum of, like, enjoying it and thinking about it in that light all the way through finishing, this project. So

Melissa: 34:19

I could see that. I could see how that would be really the nice thing my roommate and I have been going on bike rides, and it is just nice to do something Mhmm. With your hands and body and, like, accomplish a goal. You know? So

Jam: 34:32

Totally. It really is.

Melissa: 34:33

I could see how that would be really nice in the weird age of isolation. Yeah. I think I'm gonna do so we shared a few weeks ago about how my mom passed away, but Mhmm. We record these episodes a little bit closer together, so it's a it still feels a little bit new for me. Like Mhmm.

Melissa: 34:54

I think right now, it's been maybe, like, 2 weeks or so. So it it's still pretty fresh, and people have just been so kind. And I just wanted to kind of talk a little bit about that, about people have been so kind and loving. Even with coronavirus, 2 different people have sent me cookie deliveries.

Jam: 35:14

Nice.

Melissa: 35:14

Which if anyone you know is sad, don't send flowers, send cookies.

Jam: 35:18

Oh, for sure. Absolutely.

Melissa: 35:20

It's it was the nicest thing both times. I was so delighted. It was just so exciting. And then That's

Jam: 35:25

a much safer bet too. I mean, like, people may Oh, yeah. Like, kinda like flowers or may love them, but everyone Likes cookies. Surely. You know?

Melissa: 35:35

And I could share them with my roommates, so that's been nice. Or I posted about this on Twitter, but I can repost it. Some of my close friends, I lived with them for a while. They have 2 kids, and they mailed me letters. And the little girl drew a picture of us doing science together because I do science experiments with them a lot.

Melissa: 35:53

And the little boy drew a picture of Dorey Green, who is the Dallas Stars mascot. He did a good job. So just lit little things like that where people have just been so kind and the thought of me and tried to think of ways to be with me even from far away kind of

Jam: 36:10

Mhmm.

Melissa: 36:10

Trying to be wise and smart and follow the order just makes me think about how thankful I am for the awesome friends and community that I have around me. And it's just been really nice. It's been a a nice thing to be able to spend time with people and so sort of spend time with them remotely. I don't know. Yeah.

Melissa: 36:33

That's been really special to me. So and, again, send cookies. You guys wanted to send them to me. I mean, to anyone who's sad ever, just send them cookies. Yeah.

Melissa: 36:45

Yeah. So I think that's my happy thing for the week is just, being really glad that I have really awesome friends who are so kind and thoughtful and are creatively coming up with ways to feel close.

Jam: 37:00

Yeah. Absolutely. That makes sense. That's awesome.

Melissa: 37:03

So alright. Well, I'm glad that you were so excited to learn about Teflon and came up with your creative mixed metaphors there.

Jam: 37:12

Yeah. It's kinda funny because I they ask that makes sense because, Like you're saying, there's a lot of layers of molecular stuff going on. It's not just one thing, which is kinda why maybe 1 metaphor doesn't work great. We had to use Yeah. Like, 3 or whatever.

Melissa: 37:24

Yeah. It is so funny. The idea of a force field of moms at the mall with an egg being poured over top of them is hysterical to me. So That

Jam: 37:31

mental picture

Melissa: 37:31

just, like, floats above Them and slowly getting cooked or whatever. Yeah. And then also, I wanna thank the listeners Mhmm. For coming and listening and learning about what makes nonstick pans not sticky. It's always such a joy.

Jam: 37:45

Wilson, I have a lot of ideas for topics of chemistry in everyday life, but I wanna hear from you. So Just like the Teflon idea, if you have questions or ideas, you can reach out to us at Gmail, on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at chem for your life. That's chem, f o r, your life, to share your thoughts and ideas. If you enjoy this podcast, you can subscribe on your favorite podcast app. If you really like it, you can write a review on Apple Podcasts.

Jam: 38:08

That helps us to be able to share chemistry with even more people. If you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, Go to kodashfi.com/chem for your life, and donate the cost of a cup of coffee.

Melissa: 38:22

This episode of Chemistry Free Life is created by Melissa Colini and Jam Robinson. And references for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. And we'd like to give a special thanks to A. Calini and A. Who reviewed this episode.