186 Compost
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Melissa: [00:00:00] Jam, have you ever composted?

Jam: No, but my father has tried a bunch of times. I don't know if he's ever really succeeded, but I

Melissa: Oh, no.

Jam: him really, really try the compost.

Melissa: Okay. Well, do you even know why we should compost?

Jam: Um, I think because it's like really good usable stuff for gardens and plants.

Melissa: That's right. It is. So we're going to talk about why we should compost, what compost even is and how to compost and all of the chemistry behind that.

Jam: Awesome. That sounds great.

Melissa: All right, let's get into it. Hey, I'm Melissa

Jam: I'm Jam.

Melissa: and I'm a chemist

Jam: I'm not.

Melissa: and welcome to chemistry for your life

Jam: podcast [00:01:00] to help you

Melissa: compost edition. Okay. So we've gotten this question from a lot of listeners over the years, actually originally from Stephen H back in like 2019 in the very early days of the show. And then listener Greg in 2022 sent an email. And then recently I was listening. No, I was talking with some of our Patreon supporters, Chris and Claire.

Melissa: Today's Claire's birthday. So shout out Claire. Happy birthday.

Jam: Nice. Happy birthday, Claire.

Melissa: Um, we were talking about composting and you know, she's talking about some of the challenges that she'd had with it anyway. So of that made me think it's probably time to do this episode on composting. So here we are. And before we get started, I do want to convince you about why you should compost.

Melissa: I'll

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: Not just because it's good usable stuff, although that's part of it, but I'm going to give you some stats. The average U. S. [00:02:00] household wastes an estimated 32 percent of purchased food.

Jam: Wow.

Melissa: That translates to two hundred and forty billion dollars in economic losses, according to a professor of agriculture economics. In 2019, 66. 2 million tons of food wasted were generated in the food retail, food service, and residential sectors in the United States. Only 5 percent of that wasted food was composted.

Jam: Wow.

Melissa: When we send food and other organic materials to landfills or combustion facilities, we throw away valuable nutrients and carbon contained in those materials, but if we composted our food scraps and our yard trimmings. Instead, we can return those nutrients back to the soil, good usable things, support plant growth, and build resilience in our local ecosystems.

Jam: So, so whenever we send that food waste to the [00:03:00] landfill, the way that they like put that in the landfill is, is it like sort of their barrier between it and the soil? Like

Melissa: Yeah, so. We can talk about that more. There's also a barrier between it and the air, which is a big deal. So, uh, the next fact I was going to say is 51. 4 percent of municipal solid waste in landfills is food and when food and other organic materials decompose in a landfill, Because of certain conditions, bacteria will break down the material and generate a lot of methane gas, which is a powerful greenhouse gas.

Melissa: And if we do that in our own personal settings, that won't happen as much. Or if we do it in, in industrial composters, that doesn't happen. It, it's specifically in the landfill. But yes, also there, it's like so packed and piled in there that a lot of times that nutrient can't get back to

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: I mean, you're, it's in a plastic bag.

Jam: Right.[00:04:00]

Melissa: So already it's going to have a hard time getting back to the earth.

Jam: You know, I haven't thought about composting in a long time, but about a month or two ago, I saw A video about, like, a little, like, countertop composter thingy.

Melissa: Oh yeah.

Jam: Um, that speeds that process up and stuff, and I was very intrigued because, and, you know, my father may have been doing it pretty wrong, but I remember the smells of

Melissa: Yes. Oh, we're going to talk about the smells.

Jam: the bugs that were

Melissa: also going to talk about the

Jam: very attracted to what he was doing.

Jam: And, um. The work he was putting in, and the effort that he was, and when he didn't, what would, it didn't go well, so I just was like, I have a sort of like, hmm, if I did do that, maybe I would want a machine to do stuff for me, because maybe I don't want, maybe I wouldn't have any better luck, [00:05:00] so.

Melissa: Well, stay tuned because we might talk about an easier way where you can outsource labor that might already exist in your backyard. Mm hmm. Okay. So, the very last thing that I was going to say is that many cities have composting programs, um, or waste, yard waste bins, which is a way that you could outsource your labor,

Jam: do have one of

Melissa: you can dispose of coffee grounds and produce scraps in at the bare minimum.

Melissa: Sometimes they have more complex, in our, in our county, you can put, um, yard waste and vegetable scraps and coffee grounds in your yard waste bin.

Jam: Nice.

Melissa: then they will compost it for you. And I think they sell it, but

Jam: Yeah, they do. Dino dirt.

Melissa: Dino dirt, yeah! So, then you can give back in that way as well. So here's, here's some fun facts about it.

Melissa: Now here, I'm gonna say, here's the benefits of composting Melissa's version. [00:06:00] Okay. So, it makes my trash smell less bad, and it needs to be taken out less often.

Jam: Mm.

Melissa: It's a cheaper way to fertilize my garden and lawn. I feel less sad about food waste because I know it will be reused and it's not going to sit in the landfill.

Melissa: It doesn't smell bad, which I was surprised about. And last but not least, sometimes it feels like magic. Now the EPA's version of benefits are that it protects the climate by reducing methane emissions from landfills. Reduces waste, recycles organic materials into valuable soil additions, amendments is what they call

Jam: Uh huh.

Melissa: Recovers organic material and keeps them local. Creates green jobs, not sure how, maybe if you have like an industrial facility. Extends municipal landfill life by diverting organic materials, therefore saving space in

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: Because remember, 51 percent organic materials

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: reduces solid waste management costs because food scraps are one of the [00:07:00] largest and heaviest portions of the waste stream, making the recovery increasingly cost effective compared to disposal.

Jam: Nice.

Melissa: Okay. So those are, that's the EPA's version versus Melissa's version. Mine were more fun,

Jam: Right. Yeah, one of them sounded like how we, like, people talk, and the other one sounded kind of like how lawyers talk, you know?

Melissa: exactly. Yeah. So

Jam: I bet you guys can guess which one was which.

Melissa: Yeah, I definitely talk like

Jam: have those

Melissa: So that's why composting is important and why you should care about it because it really can negatively impact the environment to not compost.

Jam: hmm.

Melissa: So let's talk about what composting is

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: and the chemistry behind it. So there's probably not going to be a super traditional chemistry lesson today, but you will learn about things of and related to chemistry.

Melissa: So, composting is a process that, by which things are broken down into component parts or smaller parts that can then be used by new plants. [00:08:00] So, it's basically taking dead things and using their nutrients to make good, um, product that can enrich your soil so that it can make new things. And there's two types of composting.

Melissa: One is in the presence of oxygen, so that would be like backyard composting, and the other is without the presence of oxygen. That happens in facilities, in like sealed containers they'll do composting and it also happens inadvertently in landfills because there's so much stuff piled on that a lot of things can't get the oxygen so it breaks down in a non oxygen environment.

Jam: What kind of method do you use? Are you saving that for later?

Melissa: Well, backyard composting is in the presence of oxygen.

Jam: Oh, yours is in your backyard?

Melissa: So I do a backyard, I do, I also, Put it in my landfill bin. So I guess technically both.

Jam: So you compost

Melissa: sorry in my waste yard waste bin So I compost in my backyard backyard composting is in the presence of oxygen Very likely city of Denver. I'm guessing uses a facility [00:09:00] So is my guess uses not oxygen so that would be aerobic or anaerobic But I can never remember I get those words mixed up in my head Aerobic is with oxygen anaerobic is without oxygen but Um, it happens inadvertently in landfills because there's so much stuff piled on that can't get to oxygen, then it does produce, uh, without oxygen produces methane gas.

Melissa: But if you do that in a controlled, without oxygen environment, you can capture the methane gas and then use that methane gas. To fuel things.

Jam: Uh huh.

Melissa: So you're not letting greenhouse gases out into the atmosphere. Instead, you're taking the greenhouse gas and you're using it for other

Jam: Got it. Harnessing it.

Melissa: Harnessing

Jam: I see.

Melissa: for good instead of letting it just go out into the atmosphere.

Melissa: Cool,

Jam: Yeah. That's crazy. That's one of those things where it feels like we really hacked the system. You know? It's like, oh, there's [00:10:00] methane going to be released. Maybe we can't, maybe it's going to happen some no matter what, or maybe we could do that on purpose and use it.

Jam: That's cool. So like how, what do they use it for? Or,

Melissa: I think it gets used to, well, I don't want to speak too soon, but I think it's like a natural gas source so that like you can use it to for natural gas.

Jam: huh?

Melissa: I don't know.

Jam: I've heard of different things where like, if there's some sort of sort of steam or gas by product that a very general use would be to just have it like spin a turbine or something like that, you know,

Melissa: I think also there's methane in that is used in stoves

Jam: Hmm. I

Melissa: in our in our gas lines

Jam: I never have wondered what. Gas that

Melissa: I thought I read that but then I wasn't sure but then I quickly googled it and it affirmed that but then I was like I don't want to yeah, so that's what I I think

Jam: What if people got really into like cooking with a [00:11:00] specific kind of gas? Like, oh, no, no, no, not methane.

Melissa: Well, I

Jam: use only propane or whatever. It's like a real specific like one of those.

Melissa: Could see that happening like it leaks in your home

Jam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not like a like I think cop like it's to the coffee snob side or whatever It's like, you know different kinds of water all kind of stuff, which does have an effect But it starts to sound kind of like are you sure like,

Melissa: Are you sure it does? Yeah. Um, so that, those are the two main types, aerobic or anaerobic with oxygen, without oxygen. Okay. And

Jam: help me with that? Is that another coffee tie in? Did you have anaerobic coffee? Uh, processing, where they,

Melissa: no oxygen.

Jam: oxygen, mhm,

Melissa: No, that's

Jam: isn't that interesting? We have not had some of that, uh, to like roast or sell ourselves, but I have tasted some before myself.

Melissa: Does it taste different?

Jam: very different, yep. So all the processing is aerobic in some way, so it's one of those interesting, [00:12:00] new ish, I think new ish, experimental things.

Jam: So I will remember this because it's a coffee tie in.

Melissa: Well, that's kind of the last time we're going to talk about it because we're mostly going to talk about the kind with oxygen.

Jam: Okay, well now, I will remember which one's which, so how about that? Okay. Thank you.

Melissa: Okay, good.

Jam: That, that would otherwise probably confuse me, I think. You know?

Melissa: So we're going to do the backyard kind, the kind that happens in open air that most people would have in their backyard. And it's really a story of bacteria. It's like biochemistry, how bacteria are the best, how they're going to help us break down and sterilize our dirty garbage.

Jam: Nice. Mm

Melissa: So initially what happens is you put your compost in a bin and there's bacteria that thrive in moderate temperatures.

Melissa: So that's known as mesophilic. So mesophilic bacteria are going to predominate in your compost pile. And they're going to start by breaking down the easy stuff to break down. Like what is easiest to break down? So when I think of easy things to break down, a lot of times I'll [00:13:00] think about like sugar, sugars in all plants.

Melissa: So you can take sugar, which is carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. And in the presence of oxygen, the bacteria can break that down. and they'll produce three things. They'll basically repurpose the carbon and oxygen into carbon dioxide, and then the hydrogen and oxygen into water, and then the other thing that will be produced is heat.

Jam: Mm.

Melissa: So it'll release heat, energy in the form of heat. Okay, so when there's lots of bacteria carrying that process out over and over, and they're releasing a lot of heat, what starts to happen is your compost pile will start to heat up.

Jam: Oh.

Melissa: And as your compost pile starts to heat up, as they let more and more temperature off, it can get up to 65 degrees Fahrenheit, or Celsius, which is 150 ish degrees Fahrenheit. Yeah, it can get really hot. I was like, there's no way that's how I didn't get my compost pile, but it is! I even like read a [00:14:00] paper where they did an at home, it was a peer reviewed journal article, they tested all these things in an at home compost pile. So yeah, it can get up. to around 150 degrees Fahrenheit or 65 degrees Celsius.

Melissa: And then I thought, in my at home composter, which is black plastic,

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: the summertime, when it's already 100 degrees outside, I wonder how much hotter that gets. Yeah.

Jam: That's crazy. I feel like I would have maybe believed Or I believe it no matter what but I mean like I think it would have been easier to, easier to believe if it was like it can get up to like a hundred and it's like oh okay well so even in like colder temperatures it could raise to that yeah but the idea that it's getting up to like 150 Is that what you said?

Jam: Yeah. It's like, that's hot.

Melissa: That's high.

Jam: and I think the temperature for water that starts to like burn humans, like you shouldn't have water higher than like, I think 120, 130, like in the shower bath. So [00:15:00] we're talking, yeah. I feel like I've seen that like on water heaters, like the warning is like, here, I mean, just be careful.

Jam: Something like that. So that's, if, if I remember that correctly, then 150 is like,

Melissa: It's

Jam: Golly.

Melissa: That is hot. Yeah, that's crazy. Well, I was also surprised by that, but I don't think it stays there for very long because once it starts to get above that threshold, that's actually when even the good bacteria that you want starts to go dormant or die off. So a lot of times you want to be 65 degrees Celsius, 150 Fahrenheit or below. Okay, but when we get into those hotter temperatures, We shift from the bacteria that likes moderate temperatures, those are called mesophilic, to bacteria that likes hotter temperatures, those are called thermophilic.

Jam: Okay. Mm

Melissa: So our thermophilic bacteria plus the increased heat, the increased energy will help us, help us, help the bacteria [00:16:00] break down the more complex things.

Melissa: So, That's things that aren't going to be as easily available like fats, proteins, cellulose, things like that, that are more complex and not just like sugar, you know. And so the thermophiles will take over, they'll do that, but as you know, the, the stuff that's readily available to break down slows down, there's less stuff, reactions slow down, the pile will start to cool down, and If you're turning the pile like you're supposed to regularly, that will also release heat and things will start to cool back

Jam: hmm.

Melissa: So there's the first phase, the mesophilic phase. The second phase is the thermophilic phase, and then the last phase is called the maturing phase. In the maturing phase, it cools back down and the mesophilic bacteria take back over and then there's a bacteria in that phase that will break down the most complicated things that are like still left over, like cellulose or any of the most complicated things, but it doesn't need our [00:17:00] higher energy. Okay, so what's left after that is compost. And that's it.

Jam: then it has become compost. Mesophilic,

Melissa: compost. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jam: um,

Melissa: Maturing

Jam: maturing. I was thinking, I was like, is there another philic? Okay, maturing

Melissa: and in that phase the mesophilic takes back over because it's back in like more neutral territory

Jam: it. So are you like, in your case, or I don't know, you can also say what other people do, but, uh, do you have like a bin that you put it in in your house and then you take it out in your backyard? Do you have like just an area or is it like kind of like a, I don't know, like what? Yeah, give me the deets.

Melissa: So, um Well, I could also do i'm going to give you the deeds now or do you want me to tell you about the deeds of? What compost actually is you can pick

Jam: [00:18:00] Um, either one. If I'm gonna get

Melissa: the deeds

Jam: I'm gonna get them either way, I'm fine. But I was like, there's a little part of me, not a little part of me, there's a part of me that's also like, the how to, you know? That I'm like, okay, what do I need to like, get? And like, I'm thinking like, where in my backyard am I gonna put this stuff so my kids don't mess with

Melissa: Well, I will finish my top tips for composting at the very end of the episode, but I'll give you a quick overview. So I inherited a composter from someone else. Um, so it was free and good for the environment because they were upgrading. It's just like this black plastic, recycled plastic tub thing, it's like a hexagon I guess it has six sides, and it, it's like suspended kind of in the air on these two metal legs, and you just spin it, and on one side, It had it can like basically slide this little door open and so one side it has a plus so like that's the side we Add food to and the other side has a clock So it's like this [00:19:00] is a side that's sitting and you can flip the door around, you know So and then maybe you can do that thing where you um, if I do this you like hold a picture right

Jam: Oh, yes.

Melissa: i'll show you a picture of my backyard composter and then also our listeners.

Melissa: It looks like

Jam: Oh, I have seen those.

Melissa: can get one for similar on amazon for like 80

Jam: guess what, it's not a smoke or a barbecue pit like I probably have thought when I've seen them

Melissa: of look like

Jam: afar. I've seen these a lot. I didn't realize that's what that was.

Melissa: Yeah. There's like a little clock on one side

Jam: Uh huh.

Melissa: on the other. So like that's the side you add to, and that's the side that you are letting cook. And then once like this side is filled up, you flip, you can slide this whole thing out and flip it.

Melissa: So then, then the clocks on that side and the pluses on the other

Jam: I see.

Melissa: and then you can spin it in that

Jam: Yeah. Okay.

Melissa: So that's the, that's the, so I take my stuff out there and it hangs out in that thing. And it's cooking [00:20:00] and it's heating up, and I think we fill it up pretty fast. Um, I think we've kind of optimized that now that we have the yard waste bin, but, Um, it cooks up and then you come back and it's like gone down a significant amount.

Melissa: We left it just for like a few months, I think. And it had gone down a significant amount. It was like about probably a third of what it was when it started. And it looked like dirt in there. It was amazing.

Jam: is crazy.

Melissa: That's when it feels like magic. You're like, where did all this stuff I put in here go? Well, I'll talk about that when we get to the tips.

Melissa: There were some things that I'm like, we shouldn't have put that in there.

Jam: That is a question I have so I'll wait. Okay.

Melissa: Yeah. But so I'll say now what remains is compost. So that stuff that looks like dirt, it's not actually dirt. And I did not get a super satisfying answer. of what was the difference between soil and compost. The best thing I could find was the primary difference between compost and soil is that compost is, you know, primarily this nutrient [00:21:00] rich organic matter.

Melissa: It's carbon based, nitrogen rich, but soil has that in it, you know, as things break down naturally in the environment. So it has that nutrient rich stuff, but soil also has inorganic material. So that's not carbon based material like Sand and rocks and clay and things like that.

Jam: Got it. Okay.

Melissa: So Yes.

Jam: So soil in a way is sort of a word for like it's a combination of a bunch of things You will have those or inorganic things Obviously, we know different like areas had different soil types or whatever like the Like where I grew up had like that red clay a lot, like real, like definitely, uh, stains your clothes kind of thing.

Jam: And then some soils like sandier and that kind of stuff. That plus that organic material that probably is really similar to what compost is that part of it. I mean. Okay. Interesting.

Melissa: Yeah, and it did say that you [00:22:00] know, it's basically it's a This compost contains beneficial microorganisms, like the bacteria are obviously still there, fungi, and it's made up of living and dead things in various states of decomposition, such as plant roots and microbes. And then eventually I went and found the United States Composting Council,

Jam: Hmm.

Melissa: that was cited by a peer reviewed journal article I read, so they're legit.

Melissa: And it defined compost as the product manufactured through the controlled aerobic, so oxygen, biological decomposition of biodegradable materials. The product has undergone mesophilic and thermophilic temperatures, which significantly reduce the viability of pathogens and weed seeds, and stabilizes carbon such that it is beneficial to plant growth.

Melissa: Compost is typically used as soil amendment, but may also contribute plant nutrients. Finished [00:23:00] compost is typically screened to reduce its particle size to improve soil incorporation.

Jam: Interesting.

Melissa: And did I say that when it gets up to the certain temperatures? No, I don't think I did. I think I forgot that. When it is, because it's so consistently at these high temperatures, it does kill a lot of pathogens.

Melissa: Did I say that? I

Jam: don't remember.

Melissa: Um, it can kill pathogens that could harm humans or plants, and it can also, you know, kill weed seeds, which you want. So that's exciting too. And so this peer reviewed journal article that I read about like went through and tested and And checked for like some of the major bacteria.

Melissa: I think it was like E. coli and something else And it, the, it's sterilized from those major pathogens, the compost is. Even though it, like, the average temperature of it is more like 37, because it's ranging from like 20 all the way, 37 Celsius, because it's ranging from like 20 Celsius to 65 Celsius, [00:24:00] those heat increases seem to still, you know, Kill those

Jam: okay. Interesting.

Melissa: I know

Jam: Wow.

Melissa: so that's exciting. Okay, so

Jam: There's almost like what can't it do? You know what I'm saying?

Melissa: It can get and kill pathogens. It can break down your veggies. It can just come out here and feed your other plants It's great. It makes your trash can smell better. It's the best Okay So the the thing that I will say is in order to do this bacteria primarily need two things which are carbon and nitrogen And this may be like the finicky thing people have heard about, is that you have to get the exact right balance between carbon and nitrogen, and if you don't, it will ruin your compost.

Melissa: It won't really ruin your compost, but it can either slow down your compost process or it starts to smell bad. So if you get too much nitrogen. Instead of just producing, you know, this nice odorless carbon dioxide, [00:25:00] you can get gases that contain nitrogen, like think of like the, um, window cleaning spray, Windex, how it has like ammonium in it, and that will smell bad.

Melissa: So too much nitrogen can lead to smelling bad. Too much carbon and not enough nitrogen can lead to, oh, the bacteria doesn't have all the things that it needs, so it sort of slows the process down. So it won't ruin it either way, but it could either smell bad, or This will be too slow. Okay,

Jam: So one of those two things could have been what was going on with my dad's back in the day.

Melissa: and and I honestly think it's like You could think about, oh, I need to balance this exactly right. The ideal ratio is 20 to 30 parts carbon for every one part nitrogen. I think that's hard to do. And I don't really, I don't keep track of that when I'm dealing with my own compost bin. So what we do is we basically just put whatever [00:26:00] in there.

Melissa: And then if I notice that it starts to smell bad, then I Google Why does this what can I do to keep it from smelling bad before I did my research and knew what it was? It was like, oh you probably need to put something with more carbon in it. So I went and got some some Leaves

Jam: nice.

Melissa: leaves from around where we were and I just put them in there and crunched them up with a stick And then it didn't smell bad anymore after that, you know, so, um, that, or if it's like seeming like it's going slow, you could either just be patient or you could add more nitrogen, you know?

Melissa: So I think my, this brings us into Melissa's top tips for composting and I think you should just start. So one way that I was going to suggest for you, Jam, is to, um, just start using your yard waste bin that you already have.

Jam: I, and I have room in it most of the time because [00:27:00] right now, like it gets real full whenever it's leaves falling season, and I'm literally like filling it up all the time.

Melissa: mm hmm,

Jam: Right now that's not the case. So, I've got room.

Melissa: And what we do is we just, so when our compost bin was full and I wasn't able to like keep adding stuff to it, um, well either time I guess, we just have a bowl and throughout the day, it's like at the beginning of the day, Mason puts his coffee grounds in there and then when I make my avocado toast, I put my avocado peels in there and then, um, yeah. If I make apples or whatever cut apples up at the core in there and then whatever we're having for dinner if we like have Tomatoes or whatever we just put the peel so like as the day goes on it gets filled up filled up And like maybe once a day We'll just go and dump it out into the yard waste bin or I'll go a little bit further to the compass bin Which we have Further away from our house because sometimes it doesn't really attract that many bugs.

Melissa: We had a big fly problem last [00:28:00] year when we first moved in like Our house is just like the outside wasn't very well maintained And so it we weren't sure if it was attracting more flies or not But just to risk it like we moved into a back corner.

Jam: So the stuff you said we are in our town allowed to put in there is coffee grounds, vegetables.

Melissa: vegetable scraps raw vegetables.

Jam: Okay. Fruit as well.

Melissa: yeah fruit and vegetables

Jam: As long as it's raw.

Melissa: As long as it's raw. And I also put egg shells in, which technically is not an organic matter, but it can be good for your soil because there's calcium in there and they'll get broke up into small pieces. And so I just do it anyway.

Melissa: Sorry, city of 10. And I do it with. The, um, the coffee filter, you know how I think you and Mason both oftentimes will use the V60 or whatever with a paper filter in? Paper filters and paper towels and napkins are all also compostable. So

Jam: Uh huh.[00:29:00]

Melissa: we try not to use those in our house anyway, but if I haven't used a lot of harsh chemicals, I'll put them in the yard waste bin, which maybe that's not allowed, but it should be okay.

Melissa: So I do it anyway. Maybe I'm being too rebellious. But especially the coffee filter. I'm like that thing is soaked. It'll break down. No problem. And isn't it basically just plants anyway, so I will sometimes I don't I don't often put paper towels in those I put those in the compost bin But the coffee filter I just put in the yard

Jam: Nice. Nice. Mm hmm. Nice.

Melissa: So yeah, we just like throughout the day.

Melissa: We just fill it up and then we take it out there so look and see if your Where you're living if they have a yard waste collection option and if they do find out if they have if you can add the other things to it and that may be a very low barrier way to start composting and start making a difference.

Jam: hmm. Nice.

Melissa: So that's one way.

Jam: Very cool.

Melissa: Another tip I had is, yeah, if it starts to smell bad [00:30:00] or seems to be going slow, just Google it. Is if you just start, just try it, don't worry too much, and if it acts weird, just Google it. That's what I did and it's worked out fine for me and I ended up with compost. So it was great. You can get a composter off Amazon for pretty cheap.

Melissa: You can also look up tutorials for how to DIY it. I bet you could also find some on Marketplace. I just inherited mine from a friend and I really, really loved it. Another thing you can do is I've heard of people just composting their yard trimmings or like If they don't have too much, you know, if they like trim plants or something in like the back alleyways like But over their fence where there's just like a strip of grass and nobody hangs out there If you don't have like a yard waste collection, you can do that But I wouldn't put food there because that could attract pests, you know, mine's contained

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: um, and then if you're like trying to get your carbon nitrogen balance just right some high carbon options are like Leaves that have fallen, [00:31:00] straw, sawdust, bark, or paper, and then some nitrogen heavy things are vegetable scraps, coffee, coffee grounds, or grass clippings, or move it toward the nitrogen side.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: So I was gonna say, I recommend starting with just vegetables and maybe, you know, what I wish we hadn't done at our little composter, now that I know about our yard waste bin, I wish I'd just put vegetables in there, like vegetables, paper towels, and eggshells, and then left like big, um, Um, like my roommate has a big, like a plant with really big leaves and we like, she trimmed those down and we shoved them in the composter and it just, it turned brown, but it was like, it wasn't well incorporated

Jam: Oh, I see.

Melissa: And so even though everything else in the compost was broken down, those things were like still hanging

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: or we're like, Oh, you can compost paper. Let's put all this paper in there. So like we put big things of like packing paper in there. [00:32:00] And I do think that kind of slowed down the process

Jam: I

Melissa: So I ended up taking the paper out and putting that in the recycling bin and taking the big, huge.

Melissa: Like palm fronds is kind of what they're like out and put them in the yard waste bin I wish I had just done like the smaller things because the smaller sizes things are you know The easier it is for the bacteria to get at it. And so that was something I wish I had I wish I hadn't gone so big

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: not doing all the yard clippings, letting those stay in the yard waste bin that City of Denton would take, and then focus just on small things like vegetables, paper towels, coffee, filters, fruit, and then eggshells, and just put that primarily in the compost.

Jam: Got it. Okay.

Melissa: Because it also filled up really fast when we did that big stuff.

Jam: Yeah, why don't I try to think of Like, think of all the foods you're gonna think of, and you tell me if it's compost or

Melissa: well, let me say what you shouldn't do is meat or dairy.

Jam: nice.

Melissa: Yes, and [00:33:00] the eggshells are kind of even questionable because they don't really break down, but I haven't had a problem with them and they are good for your soil.

Jam: What about bread?

Melissa: I don't do bread because it's big.

Jam: Mm.

Melissa: You maybe could. I would say err on the side of being less riskier when you first start.

Jam: Got it, okay.

Melissa: My sister composts everything, but she has like built a specific compost bin. She lives on a really large plot of land. It's like pretty far away from her house, so she doesn't super have to deal with the negative consequences. She has it like, there's a lot of air flow, like hers kind of looks like, Imagine like a chicken coop kind

Jam: Yes, I've seen

Melissa: so yeah, so there's like really good airflow And so and but it because it's really well fenced in there's not like rodents really getting at it So hers is like much more.

Melissa: Yeah, do whatever whereas mine. I'm like, I'm not gonna be throwing rotted meat

Jam: yeah, right.

Melissa: so[00:34:00]

Jam: Okay,

Melissa: the other thing I was gonna say Is the EPA and Cornell and a lot of the other extension websites have really good Websites that talk about the how to get started and composting. Okay. What other questions do you have for me?

Jam: Um, can I, I think what I was trying to think of like what all things we kind of throw away a lot. We do a lot of fruit and vegetables, so that helps a lot. Almost always raw, right? Um, scraps, trims, whatever. Um, oh yeah, how about this? What if I have a bag of salad that went bad?

Melissa: Throw it in

Jam: Nice. I was thinking like, it's not like that's been really processed in like the way that, it's not like it's been like manufactured, right?

Jam: But it has been trimmed, probably sprayed some stuff on it, right? Put into a bag.

Melissa: it in there and it's fine.

Jam: Uh, so if I had like a bag of baby carrots that went bad, do I need [00:35:00] to like trim them down? Like cut them into pieces or just throw them in?

Melissa: throw them in

Jam: Okay. Um,

Melissa: You can, if you wanted to go faster, cut them down. But I don't, I like, I had, well, I guess this is already period, but I had some pumpkin that I left in there too long. And I was like, it's moldy. Oh, well dumped it in there. It was fine. It's not like you didn't see pumpkin.

Jam: a good question. So if it's moldy, it's fine.

Melissa: Yeah. It's just already started breaking

Jam: Okay. I assumed that was the case, but then I was like, that would be one of the things that if I didn't ask it, I could see there being like a, you know, some future time where I'm like, Hey, Melissa, my entire like deal is like moldy. And you'd be like, Oh yeah, you can't do that.

Jam: Like, ah, dang it. I should ask about that.

Melissa: mean, I didn't have a problem with it. I guess it could be a problem, but I haven't. Those are the things that I'm like, I just try. I just didn't try in it.

Jam: Yeah. Um, this is not a question about what I can accomplish or not. And I know you said it's technically not true, but what if, [00:36:00] what if we called this episode how to make dirt

Melissa: I love it.

Jam: or stuff like that?

Melissa: How to make dirt. What's the chemistry of composting? Get compost in the title so that when people search it, it comes

Jam: Yeah. I got to have that. Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, that's what it looks like. It just looks like dirt in there. And what I did, um, I was too lazy to actually get the dirt out. And it was like pretty far in there. I was like, I don't feel like I made enough.

Melissa: So I took out all those big pieces and, um, Um, I transferred things that I thought would, you know, keep breaking down to the left side and it wasn't gross. It doesn't smell bad. It should just smell earthy, you know, whatever. I haven't really had a problem with it smelling at all. Um, except that one time that we crunched up leaves in there.

Melissa: And then I just started throwing more stuff in there. So I haven't harvested any yet, but I could see it. And I was like, this, it doesn't smell bad and it looks just like dirt. And that's so exciting, but it just rained and I'm kind of in a hurry and I want to start using this again. So I'm just. [00:37:00] I just didn't harvest

Jam: How about this? What? Why? Can't you do cooked vegetables? Like, we usually don't cook more vegetables than we're gonna actually eat, so that's helpful. Like, it almost always is our raw vegetables that we didn't get to in time. Um, but there are times, like where we, Do we're a big broccoli house? So like we make broccoli quite a bit and there's times it was like one or two

Melissa: Listen, I bet you could.

Jam: Okay,

Melissa: But I don't know, like, let's just look it up. This is exactly what I do.

Jam: like I could see on one hand You you might be adding some stuff in there that might like the oils and stuff like that. You're adding

Melissa: Oh, that's a good

Jam: But then on the other hand, I think doesn't, didn't we learn that, you know, like to a degree, at least cooking is breaking some of this stuff

Melissa: Oh, here we go. When cooked vegetables, this is just Googled. So don't, I don't know if you trust it. When cooked vegetables break down, they start to rot quickly, which is [00:38:00] unsanitary and can lead to unpleasant odors. So maybe it's like, a small amount of rotting food is okay for compost, but too much can compromise by attracting pests.

Jam: it'd be cool if I could add, like, say one of my kids just doesn't eat two of the little, like a little two florets or whatever.

Melissa: you could definitely do

Jam: Okay, cool.

Melissa: I mean, I think, some things say you can compost cooked vegetables. Other things say you can't. So,

Jam: I think one of the things that thing I saw that little like countertop deal.

Melissa: oh, this one does say, Oh, as long as they don't have any butter or grease.

Jam: it.

Melissa: So that could be, you could be on the same, I bet oil would be fine. But yeah, butter probably. And that is something is like, I bet there's a level of contamination that's not that big of a deal, but like if you put, uh, if you're constantly putting butter covered things in there, that's a lot of dairy and that's going to start to change.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jam: right. Okay makes sense.

Melissa: What were you going to say? The, oh, the countertop thing. I think we've, I've seen that before.

Jam: I think in I [00:39:00] think I'm in there's like some things that I saw in the video that going in Probably what makes their, like, category of things you can put in there broader is that it's speeding up so fast, so like, the

Melissa: I think it gets it hot.

Jam: so the things that are like, um, that would be a problem to be rotting and stuff like that, if you were to put cooked vegetables in a normal composting thing, this deal does it in like, a few hours, so I'm guessing that it broadens your range, you have some stuff you can put in there, which would be cool.

Jam: I mean,

Melissa: I think I looked at that thing and it was pretty expensive. I, I, when we were sitting in the, um, the apartment, I had wondered about starting composting and then we looked into that and we realized it was actually cheaper to get a compost subscription

Jam: mm hmm,

Melissa: where you can basically just like trade out a compost bucket and then at our community market, you just bring it to them and then they give you a fresh one.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. So we looked at that, but it was, so that was cheaper, like over time than using [00:40:00] the countertop one. And I was like, well, probably better to not contribute to waste by getting a whole new thing. You know, it's all the game of like, is the footprint of getting this going to offset what I'm doing or,

Jam: yeah, I feel like that would be cool if, um, you were going to quickly use it for stuff, like, and you were gonna use it yourself or whatever, but yeah, otherwise, it's like, why would you need it to be that fast,

Melissa: yeah,

Jam: yeah, or if you didn't have access to a subscription and you didn't have a backyard, like, if.

Jam: It probably, there's a probably a specific group that maybe it's perfect for. I was just, I was intrigued by it, but I was not ready to throw some money at something like that. I was just like, whoa, it's turning into compost that fast? That's insane.

Melissa: yeah, yeah.

Jam: opened it up and I was like, that, I mean, that was like dirt to me.

Jam: But,

Melissa: Yeah, I would say for you and your family, a great place to start is just like, use that yard waste bin. You know, you [00:41:00] already have it. It's not filled up with leaves right now. And then we'll, you know, see if like, is this realistic for us to do? And then if you If you think, yeah, this is realistic. I feel like the next step of then getting the compost bin, that could be a little bit harder, you know, like, Oh, I do have to think about it a little bit more.

Melissa: We don't have kids or anything. So like for me, it's like, it doesn't matter. And it's far enough away from my house. I never smell it. I never think about it. It doesn't smell bad. Usually when I go over there anyway, it has like a few flies around at most,

Jam: well,

Melissa: but there haven't been a lot,

Jam: I was thinking about that before you showed me what you actually have because what my dad did was like basically literally a pile. That's what I've seen other people do

Melissa: Yeah,

Jam: and I know that I know that my kids would mess with that and also like the bugs would be like right there in the open air and stuff but um, but like a container sort of deal like that you have is a lot less, you know,

Melissa: All of

Jam: yeah.

Jam: So that could be, that could be a good option in the [00:42:00] future. Maybe. Dang, very cool.

Melissa: maybe you could just put your wife is really good at Facebook Marketplace on it. And if she sees one, you could like low risk, get it and see what you think.

Jam: Totally. Yes. I bet there are some, some on there. I would bet people, if they're moving might be like, when listening to move, you know, and be like, I could get another one whenever I get where I'm going. But like the idea of like trying to throw that in your moving track and stuff, it's probably like, yeah,

Melissa: Yeah. And it was kind of like dirty. It was fine because we were just moving that from Frisco to here and it was like,

Jam: like you wouldn't move your dumpster. It's kind of like, no, I just, I'll get new ones there. You know, it seems kind of like they're, they are outside all the time. They're kind of dirty. Even like our recycling one, which like doesn't actually have like gross stuff in there. It's sort of like yeah I wouldn't really I wouldn't move.

Jam: I wouldn't put that in a moving vehicle, you know or whatever.

Melissa: Well, I really love mine. I did get it for free, so it was [00:43:00] like a lot lower of a risk. It's not like, okay, so I'm expecting something good to come out of

Jam: Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: I don't have to feel bad throwing away when I forget about my spinach and it starts to

Jam: Yeah. Yeah

Melissa: or, you know, whatever it is. And so that's made me, I mean, pretty happy and it's easy to spin.

Melissa: It's not like heavy. It's kind of fun. And when we go on our walks in the evening, I just notice it and I'll just spin it and then I'm done. Yeah. Yeah.

Jam: Yeah. That's the other thing with the pile deal is that my, my dad would have to like get in there and like churn it

Melissa: Yes, you have to like manually turn it and fluff it to let the heat out and to make sure that there was airflow. Yeah, I don't have to do that. I just can like spend my little

Jam: And I'm pretty sure he's adding stuff he shouldn't have added. So I think there's a bunch of strikes against his Method and at the same time, this was, you know, 15 years ago, so we didn't know all the websites and stuff.

Jam: I'm sure that information was out there, but probably harder to find. So you know, now it's a lot cooler to do.

Melissa: Well, I'm really excited about it in part because I'll go ahead. I [00:44:00] mean, do you want to review this lesson at all? It's kind of hard because it's like less of a lesson.

Jam: I guess I could do, I could try my hand at the process part.

Melissa: Okay.

Jam: Um, so you are taking organic material, waste, uh, you know, limited list of, you know, Of things but pretty good amount of stuff we have in our homes a lot that it is a high percentage For the average household that is it gets wasted and she gets added to the landfill trash stuff.

Jam: So, um raw vegetable scraps fruit scraps, um coffee grounds Stuff like that if we put it into a composting bin of some kind initially it starts to The first phase is the[00:45:00]

Jam: mylophilic, meso, meso,

Melissa: And what does mesophilic mean?

Jam: it means, um, heat,

Melissa: No, that means moderate temperature.

Jam: moderate, nice.

Melissa: Sorry.

Jam: funny because meso, like meso soup, is actually hot. So, dang it, not, there's not, right, thermo, yeah, even more obvious. Moderate, okay. So at that point, Um, the bacteria starts doing it's thing and then as it starts breaking down the scraps then the temperature starts to rise and then you get to the thermophilic?

Melissa: Yeah. So the first is mesophilic bacteria, they like moderate temperatures. And then as it starts to heat up, the mesophilic dies away and the thermophilic bacteria takes [00:46:00] over.

Jam: And so then it's, and it's getting hotter but even to that, to a point, bacteria will start to go dormant and not. It won't happen as fast, so that's why it's good to turn it,

Melissa: It releases the

Jam: release the heat,

Melissa: and also lets out the, lets in oxygen.

Jam: in oxygen, and then after that stage, maturation,

Melissa: Mhmm. Hehehe.

Jam: is just like kind of where it starts to just kind of think for itself more and just make slightly better decisions. It's got some experience and stuff and just kind of. It just, yeah, you know what I mean?

Melissa: Yeah, totally.

Jam: and yeah, well, what marks that one?

Melissa: So it's when the thermophilic bacteria start to die away, the pile starts to cool back down and the mesophilic bacteria come out and like finish up the hardest things. And I will say in the thermophilic, that's also like the first step, the mesophilic, it's doing the easiest to break down things. So like sugars

Jam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: [00:47:00] Protein and fat and things start to get broken down at, in the higher temperature and like cellulose starts and then the, the rest of the cellulose and lignin and stuff I think is what comes at the maturation phase.

Jam: Got it. Okay. That's kind of cool. So it's, it's the, the earlier bacteria comes back in and finishes stuff off again, so they get the second turn and then after that it's compost, baby.

Melissa: It's compost, which is, um, mysterious what it contains. Maybe like a soil biologist can come in and tell us, but it is organic. So primarily carbon based, nitrogen rich carbon based material that's good for feeding plants,

Jam: Got it. So like, like how good does it taste at that point?

Melissa: Yeah, probably. It probably tastes great. No, that is a good point. You should still wash your hands after you use it and stuff because the pathogen [00:48:00] should be cleaned out, cleared out. It's called like the hygienization. It's like hygienic. Whatever. Like it's, oh, it's cleaned out a lot of these pathogens, but just in case, because it's a home process and like, Who knows?

Melissa: You don't know if you did it perfectly. I would still be careful and like wash your hands, you know, cause it is, it was rotting food at one point and there might still be some of that.

Jam: totally. And also, I think most of us, that should be a little bit intuitive, because I think we also just like wash our hands when we touch dirt too, and like the ground, you know, it's like, I'm not just going to eat some food right now, you know. So hopefully that is, if I'm getting into this, hopefully that will be intuitive to me.

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: I went and tried to look and see what Denton did with its yard waste and it doesn't explicitly say that it composts, but it does say That our dino dirt, which we suspect comes from the composting that comes from our yard waste bins is [00:49:00] It says that it is a member of the United States composting Council Which is the thing I talked about seal of testing assurance program And so it's a compost testing labeling and information disclosure program to give consumers information They need to get the maximum benefit out of the use of their compost.

Melissa: So that's cool So that's our one tiny way of composting, I guess, in Denton.

Jam: Very cool.

Melissa: So, yeah, great. Oh wait, does it say? No. Yes! I just found it! Dino dirt compost, soil blend, and mulches are, um, produced using yard trimmings and recycled biosolids, which prolongs the life of our landfill. Wow, so maybe they even go through the landfill and get stuff out,

Jam: That'd be cool if they do. I remember I talked to a neighbor at a previous house before when they were starting this program with the yard waste bins because, um, the house I used to live in, they didn't have that program until partway through [00:50:00] living there. He was like, kind of like, not that into it because he was like, man, I don't want to put all my leaves and stuff like that in there just so they can process it and then sell it back to me.

Jam: Like, I was like, I could do this all myself, and I'm like, yeah, that's sort of true, but like, also, it's like, very affordable, that dirt is, and it's like, really good stuff.

Melissa: yeah.

Jam: They're, and they're doing,

Melissa: whenever I was making my garden.

Jam: they're doing like, really, so they're doing a lot for us, and they're mixing stuff in a way that we couldn't easily, as easily do.

Jam: They kind of made it seem like, wow, they're taking all our, like, organic material, and just making money off of it. And I was like, I would bet they're not making money hand over fist here. I bet it's like,

Melissa: It's hard to say.

Jam: probably like if it breaks even and a little better than that, then cool. But just try competing like the going and getting a good bag of soil at the,

Melissa: Yeah. It was so expensive.

Jam: It's just

Melissa: to the hardware store, and I regret it because I realized [00:51:00] after we could have gotten Dino Dirt in support of this program. But also, it's like, are you really going to do anything with it? Like, a lot of the things that A lot of it is solving a problem for me. Like, I don't have space for all of the compost that I want.

Melissa: We filled it up so quickly in a three person household.

Jam: hmm.

Melissa: And one of the things that was hardest and most annoying to compost was like the long trimmings of like our palm type plants. Or, you know, yeah, like when we mow our yard, you know, it's like, We bag it all up and dump it in there instead of just leaving it which I guess I've heard you can also just leave It but we have a bunch of weeds that we're trying to get the seeds out But anyway, I think that they're doing a cool service because I think a lot of people wouldn't compost But just knowing that like hey, you can just throw your vegetable scraps in this yard waste It feels like it really lowers the barrier of entry to a compost bin, you know, like that's way harder to think about than just [00:52:00] throwing my vegetable scraps in here,

Jam: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Melissa: and I used to every time we made, we made ceviche a lot, um, which like, then we're cutting up peppers, we're cutting up tomatoes, we're cutting up, um, cilantro, we're cutting up onions, we're cutting up, uh, avocado.

Melissa: And every time we'd make it, I'd be like, man, I wish we had a compost and now I get to be like yay we have a compost we can like do things with this

Jam: That's awesome.

Melissa: it's very exciting. And then when our compost was full I was sad and then I realized that We could do this. And I was like, yay, we can still compost, you know, it was just exciting.

Jam: Yeah. That's awesome.

Melissa: yeah, I like it.

Jam: That's awesome. Well, I'm very interested. And guess what? This ended up having to double, I think, as both the chemistry lesson and also sharing something cool from your week, because we have gone. Quite a long time.

Melissa: Well, so we just got so excited talking about compost.

Jam: I was interested to add plenty of questions of my own.

Jam: So let's just [00:53:00] say we'll have something for our week next time.

Melissa: Okay. I'll say one little thing and that's that my friend Steven, who gave this to me, said that when he spread it around, sometimes there'd be what he called volunteer seeds that somehow made it through and he got like a squash or something like a plant here and there in his

Jam: that's funny.

Melissa: that was fun, but I'm mostly going to use mine in my garden.

Melissa: So I think that I'd be like. You

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: I don't care about volunteer

Jam: Yeah. Yeah. Right. It will be a garden. So yeah. Perfect.

Melissa: Okay. Great. Well, thanks so much for being excited about compost with me.

Jam: I mean, seems great to me. Like kind of seems like a no brainer.

Melissa: Yeah. Especially when the, your city makes it as easy as our city does. So go see if your city's doing anything cool

Jam: Yeah. And if they're not be like, why not?

Melissa: Yeah. Right. You're elected officials.

Jam: Yeah. And be like, okay. And maybe, I mean, you know, maybe there's something, maybe there's a cool like community option, like at our market or whatever. So You probably got something.

Melissa: And also write to us about your [00:54:00] questions, right? Jam.

Jam: Yes, that's right. So if you have a question or a thought or a bit of feedback, something to add to this conversation or a commercial question about something totally different, reach out to us on our website at chemforyourlife. com. That's chem f o r y o u r life dot com to share your thoughts and ideas.

Jam: you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it you can join our super cool chem immunity of patrons on patreon. com slash chem for your life and it's a super cool thing you get to hang out with us there's some perks and stuff like that ways we thank you for helping keep the show going keeping it free And we get to interact with you and get to know you better.

Jam: It's super fun. So please join that at patreon. com slash chemistry for your life. But if you're not able to do that, you can still help us by subscribing on our favorite podcast app, rating, writing, or viewing Apple podcasts. And then also subscribing on our YouTube channel. Those things help us to share chemistry with even more people.

Melissa: This episode of Chemistry Free Life was created by Melissa Colini and Jam Robinson. Jam Robinson is our producer and this episode was made possible by our [00:55:00] financial supporters over on Patreon. It seriously is so amazing that you want us to make chemistry accessible for even more people, so thank you so much for facilitating that and being excited about chemistry with us.

Melissa: And those supporters are John T., Avishai B., Bri M., Brian K., Carol R., Chris, and Claire S. Chelsea B, Derek L, Elizabeth P, Emerson W, Hunter R, Jacob T, Christina G, Katrina H, Latila S, Lynn S, Melissa P, Nicole C, Rachel R, Sarah M, Stephen B, Shadow, Suzanne P, Timothy P, Venus R, Erica B, Cullen R, and Jeanette N. Thank you all for so much that you, for everything that you do.

Melissa: You do so much to make Chemistry for Your Life happen. And an extra special thanks to Bri who often creates illustrations to go along with episodes of chemistry for your life. You can see those over on our YouTube channel. Um, and please thank Bri by [00:56:00] checking out our show notes and following her on Twitter and at her website and tropic.

Melissa: artstation. com.

Jam: And if you'd like to learn more about today's chemistry lesson, you can check the references for this episode in our show notes or in the description of the video.

Melissa: Yay composting.

Jam: Chemistry.