Fall Mini 07 - Who is and isn't a chemist?
Hey. I'm Melissa.
Jam:I'm Jam.
Melissa:And I'm a chemist.
Jam:And I'm not.
Melissa:And welcome to chemistry for your life.
Jam:The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life, mini edition.
Melissa:It's the final mini, the mini to end all minis.
Jam:The mini to end all minis. I was trying to think of a a word that kinda means last, starts with an m. Couldn't think of
Melissa:1. All I can think is penultimate, but that's, like, second to last, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Jam:Penultimate is second to last. What's like the what's like Isn't that, like, ending?
Melissa:No idea what that means.
Jam:Okay. It's a French word.
Melissa:We both did French. Heard that.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:I did take French in high school, but I don't know what that means.
Jam:Well, if you are out there and you know and you're in France, then you can laugh at us because we don't know what we're talking about.
Melissa:It's the marvelous mini.
Jam:The marvelous. Yes.
Melissa:Mason, if you wanna chime in right now, you have to come over here and be on this mic.
Jam:You're trying to chime in from over there?
Melissa:I think so. Oh, wait. We actually have a live studio audience here with us today, and apparently, he knows what This m word is.
Jam:Sir, tell us tell us what you're trying to say. Well, I don't know what, The n word you're looking for is but I feel like Danuma is, like, the end of a story or something. I goes back to, like, high school literature class. Nice. So that's all I had to say.
Melissa:And that was a minute with Mason where you guys got to hear for the first time On podcast history from Melissa's husband, Mason.
Jam:Yeah. He's he's lately been one of our live live studio audience Presence in some of these episodes recently, and it's been very nice.
Melissa:It really has been fun. I guess when we record these lately, it's been in the evening because Your wife has a new work schedule. Uh-huh. That's true. Impacts us.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:And I guess Mason just likes both of us so much. He likes to hang out and listen to us Cass.
Jam:Yeah. Which is interesting. I mean, I'm I'm certainly for it.
Melissa:Yeah. So And I guess for a listener, it's as if You get to listen to a live recording of your favorite podcast once a week.
Jam:Yeah. Seriously. It's pretty cool.
Melissa:It is pretty cool. Well, I'm excited because I'm excited for two reasons.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:I'm excited to resume our regularly Scheduled program. Mhmm. Mhmm. But Jim and I have decided to make a bit of a change to that schedule. We'll talk about that more at the end.
Jam:K.
Melissa:But I'm also excited because the question that we're doing in today's fall mini is actually one that allows me to talk about my area of research.
Jam:Nice. Okay. Cool.
Melissa:So this question came to us from listener Kate Kaye. Kate said, I graduated with my bachelor's in chemistry, ACS. And just as an aside, ACS, for those of you who don't know, is American Chemical Society, and they will Accredit universities. But Kate said, ACS in December of 2019, she got out just before the pandemic.
Jam:Oh, wow.
Melissa:Does this education alone make me a chemist? And if not, what level of education does?
Jam:I see. Where's the line? What makes you a chemist?
Melissa:What makes you a chemist? And that's what today's episode is all about.
Jam:Interesting. Okay.
Melissa:And I was really excited by this question because it really does open up a chance for me to talk A little about what I do as a chemist. So my research is in something called chemistry education.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:A lot of people hear that, and they think I'm training to be a teacher. Mhmm. But actually, chemistry education research is learning how people learn chemistry and studying how they develop an expertise in the field. And both of those things come into play when you think about becoming a chemist.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:And, actually, there is a part of chemistry education research focused on something called chemistry identity
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:Which is the sense that someone is a chemistry person.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:That's not the research I do. I research how people feel about learning chemistry and how that impacts their learning experience.
Jam:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Melissa:Because I firmly believe that, as you can tell from this podcast, if the learning experience is more enjoyable, People are more likely to take more away from it. Yeah. So I get to study that for my job. It's really fun.
Jam:And you get to sort of do a live experiment of it every week here?
Melissa:Absolutely. That's what I love hearing from you guys. Because every time I hear from a listener, it confirms my theory that You can learn chemistry in a fun setting and shit. Yeah. But there are people who are experts in chemistry education research that focus on chemistry identity.
Melissa:People who study that. And so I reached out to some of these people, and I heard back from a few of them. And I will say that there's more work Currently, actually, in physics identity than there is in STEM identity. This is an emerging part of the field.
Jam:K.
Melissa:But I was really excited to be able to reach out to other experts in response to Kate's question.
Jam:Okay.
Melissa:So the first of these experts that I heard back from was doctor Katherine. She has a PhD in chemistry education, and she currently is serving in a position called a postdoc, which means Research is her main focus. She's not teaching or anything on the side. She's doing research full time as a Postdoctoral researcher.
Jam:Okay. Cool.
Melissa:So doctor said, this is such a loaded question, And it opens up a big can of worms. Seeing yourself as a chemist is tied to the idea of chemistry identity. For many people, having a strong chemistry identity is dependent on if they think others see them as chemists, so it makes sense that you'd be asking this question. Unfortunately, I don't really have a clear answer for you. There's no tried and true definition of what a chemist is.
Melissa:Does having the education of a chemist alone make someone a chemist? What makes the education of a chemist unique from other science disciplines? Does a chemist have to be an expert in chemistry? What truly makes someone an expert? The answer to these questions are still being explored, and I don't know if we'll ever have a clear answer.
Melissa:And I don't really know if we should. If we have a clear answer, the border of who is a chemist becomes rigid, and we may leave out Those who could contribute to the field of chemistry in new ways.
Jam:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Melissa:I know that this response didn't really answer your question, so I will say this. Do you feel that after learning about chemistry, you see the world through a new filter? If yes, then I would say you might be a chemist. Nice. I love that answer.
Melissa:Yeah. Another person I heard back from was doctor Adriana Corales. Doctor Corales also has a PhD. Mhmm. I think their PhD might be in general education research because I know they went to school in sort of a joint program.
Melissa:Mhmm. And, actually, they did study physics identity when they were in grad school. K. So they have more of a well Rounded background in terms of education research, but they have a master's degree in organic, and they do Chemistry education research now at University of North Texas.
Jam:Nice.
Melissa:So this is the postdoctoral researcher in our group.
Jam:Nice. Okay. Cool.
Melissa:And they said identity is a social construct. So at the end of the day, one science identity comes from recognition, competence, interest, and so many other experiences. You probably have heard from others that having a bachelor's doesn't qualify you as a scientist, so you might be unsure. In the end, you can take in all these things. How much do you like science, and how much are you interested in it?
Melissa:How successful were you in school? You have recognition or lack thereof from others? And so many other factors that you can decide for yourself. So I would almost ask back to you, what does being a scientist mean to you? And then ask, with that in mind, What do you do to fulfill that idea, or are there ways you already do?
Melissa:There's clearly not one right answer, so it's kind of up to you. Anyway, that's just my quick 2¢. So that was a response from doctor Corrales.
Jam:Yeah. That's good. I also feel like it's just it's interesting to have questions like that. Like, am I a this or that? Because It's like in a lot of other professions not saying everything is equal.
Jam:When you are doing it, you are it. You know? Right. If you You are making films as your filmmaker. Doesn't imply that you're, like, making tons of money or that you're fully successful in every way.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:But if you are doing the the thing, then you are it. That's like a very I think for for other areas, that, is a okay definition to have. But I realized why it's more complicated here in in the sciences and why people have an interest in in You have an interest in trying to figure out where You jog online? Yeah.
Melissa:Right. Well and I will say that Kind of jumping off on what you said, I didn't feel comfortable calling myself a chemist for years. I had a bachelor's degree in chemistry. I also had a master's degree in chemistry. Mhmm.
Melissa:I had published a paper with a research group contributing new research to the field of organic chemistry. 3. Mhmm. And due to the imposter effect that we talked about last week, I struggled to say even with all those, Not only did I have a master's degree, I actually had passed qualifying exams, which quote, unquote qualify you to earn a PhD in organic chemistry. Uh-huh.
Melissa:So I was more qualified than many other people who have master's degrees, and I still was uncomfortable calling myself a chemist.
Jam:Yeah. That's interesting.
Melissa:And the reason I finally became comfortable calling myself a chemist was because we started chemistry for your life Mhmm. And you made me Say I'm a chemist every single
Jam:Yeah. I think I remember I was having a little discussion about that back at the beginning.
Melissa:I
Jam:think for me, just as a layperson and having listened to science podcasts and stuff, it being clear from the very beginning, like, oh, this person who is talking about chemistry here and who's kinda giving the information is a chemist. Right. And to me, it was, like, So clear. I'm your friend. I've known you and have watched you kind of go through your your master's and PhD so far.
Jam:And to me, it was never a question as a person on the sidelines watching you do that, that you already were 1. You know?
Melissa:No. I was worried that it was false advertising or something.
Jam:Yeah. That's interesting.
Melissa:I mean, I don't think it was, but I think that just shows you how deep the imposter effect goes.
Jam:Yeah. I was gonna say too, I think back to the question of am I or am I not a chemist. Mhmm. One thing that came to mind for me while you're kinda reading those responses is that It's almost actually more interesting rather than asking, are you, are you not, or am I, or am I not? For if I was asking somebody, I would say something like, do you do in the field of chemistry?
Melissa:Right.
Jam:I wouldn't really necessarily think it's super interesting to find out if they are or not one because I mean, probably probably because I'm not a scientist and stuff. That's why. But I'd love to know what you do. So Right. You saying, oh, if I asked you, what do you do in the field of chemistry?
Jam:And you're talking about Chemistry education research. You would have tons to say about that. You wouldn't you wouldn't really be splitting hairs about, Well, am I really doing that research or not? You know?
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:You would just tell me what you do, and that would get us into an interesting conversation quickly, And I'd get to learn about what you know about
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Which seems like a more important question in some ways or gets gets people to the to the more important more interesting answers. Don't know.
Melissa:Well, that kind of actually jumps into my next point, which is if people ask me what my job is, Sometimes I respond chemist just because it's shorter than explaining all my things.
Jam:Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Melissa:But even though I'm a chemist by training, most of the time when people say, what do you do? I'll say, I'm a graduate student, or I teach organic chemistry.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:Or I do research in chemistry education. I study how people learn chemistry. 3. Mhmm. Or I say, I'm a chemistry podcaster.
Melissa:I'm a science communicator. Yeah. Yeah. So I have all these different aspects of my, quote, unquote, chemistry identity. Mhmm.
Melissa:Because if you just say I'm a chemist, a lot of times people have no idea what that means.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa:And so while that's part of my identity, I am a chemist by training. I would ask this person and other people who are wondering this for themselves. Do you see a part of your own identity as a chemist? Do you have training as a chemist? What part of your identity is chemistry?
Melissa:Mhmm. What percent? You know? For me, that's a big percent because if someone asks about me, chemistry comes up quickly.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So it is a big part of my identity, but it's not I'm not the kind of chemist who works in the lab.
Jam:Right. Right. Yeah. People have a picture of you holding an Erlenmeyer flask and a test tube and a, you know, Bunsen burner and all that stuff.
Melissa:There is a picture of me doing that.
Jam:Right. But
Melissa:that's what they think that's
Jam:what they think that makes someone a chemist, then
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Then that would be a pretty restrictive Definition.
Melissa:There's computational chemists. There's chemists who work in analytical labs. There's there's chemists all over the place. And I do think we fall into that sometimes where computational chemists and chemistry education researchers who it looks a little different will say, quote, unquote, real chemists. Mhmm.
Melissa:So So some computational chemists that I know actually dressed up as, quote, real chemist for Halloween 1 year, and they wore lab coats and goggles because they don't wear those very often. So, I mean, we even have some some flexibility about that within our field of what a chemist is. There's Yeah. There's not this clear definition at all. And Yeah.
Melissa:I definitely see the world differently than someone who studies Outer space. Right? Mhmm. I'm definitely more chemistry than I am astronomy. Mhmm.
Melissa:But I'm also Definitely more organic chemistry than my fellow chemist who focus in inorganic or computational.
Jam:Right. Right.
Melissa:I look at reactions and focus on electrons, whereas they might focus on trans. Whereas they might focus on different things. You know? And we've had some people email and say, oh, I would define this differently, and it's, Hi. Well, you're not an organic chemist.
Melissa:So Yeah. Yeah. So there are so many different varieties of chemists and so many different Mindset even within chemistry that this is a really complicated question. Mhmm.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So I guess I just wanna wrap that up by saying I really agree with doctor and doctor Karalus's thoughts. And I do think if you've had some training in chemistry, you likely see the world differently. But I also wanna know, what you do in the field of chemistry, and what is that like for you?
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:So don't worry too much about if you are or aren't. If you're doing chemistry for your job, if you have training in chemistry, you're probably at least some little bit of you is a chemist Somewhere inside.
Jam:That does kinda make me wonder how far into being a chemist am I at this point? Would just say, like, 25% of the way there.
Melissa:Oh, no. 33%
Jam:of the way there.
Melissa:I guess we're not defining the end goal, so not defining your percentage. Yeah. You definitely are more chemisty than you used to be.
Jam:That's true. That's true.
Melissa:I have told so many people the story about how you figured out to make your pressure cooker boil over less by adding more salt to it.
Jam:Oh, yeah.
Melissa:That is a chemistry mindset. I told that at a conference, and all the chemists in the room were very excited.
Jam:Nice. Okay. Yeah.
Melissa:That was my mark to them that you learned how to take you learned on the podcast and apply it to real life. Nice. Nice. Okay.
Jam:I'll take that. I'll take that as sort of like a ribbon, you know, like a participation ribbon.
Melissa:Yes.
Jam:It's like, you are participating in chemistry. Some so here you go.
Melissa:And you're helping communicate it to people all over the world.
Jam:Yeah. And I think what's funny too is, like, we you ask the questions about identity and stuff like that, and that is interesting because I've always done a lot of different things.
Melissa:Mhmm.
Jam:But certainly, like podcaster Would be my go to if I was talking about what we do here.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:I wouldn't, you know, I would not even go as far as, say, chemist Chemistry podcaster. I would just say podcaster, partly because I have done other podcasts. You know? But Right. It's just kinda funny to think about What what things do we think make up our identity?
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And when we try to explain it to other people, that's usually sort of a telltale sign. Which things do I reach for? What things do I think define me well? And that's an interesting
Melissa:Yeah.
Jam:Question to think about for anybody.
Melissa:Yeah. But Oh, and I didn't wanna say there are some studies that show who feels more comfortable calling themselves. I think it's a physicist. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Melissa:And it's Sort of goes in line with what we talked about last week about impostor syndrome. It's people who are most well represented in that field often feel more comfortable calling themselves a Whatever that kind of scientist is, first.
Jam:Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
Melissa:So I thought that was interesting too.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:But if you have a bachelor's degree in chemistry. I would say you are a chemist probably, and you probably do see the world differently. Mhmm. That's a pretty black and white definition, and I really like doctor Doctor Corrales' definition's better.
Jam:And so even chemists don't necessarily totally agree on this. So
Melissa:Right.
Jam:How could we ever find a really firm Definition, who knows?
Melissa:Who knows? And that's chemistry for who who knows life. Speaking of who knows, I'm sure you all have been wondering, waiting, thinking who knows when chemistry for your life is coming back to its regularly
Jam:programmed schedule.
Melissa:And Jim and I are excited to announce that our holiday season gift back to you Is starting next Thursday, we will be releasing new regular episodes of chemistry for your life.
Jam:Yes. The minis have been fun, Mario. Been
Melissa:so fun.
Jam:Gonna go back to the a new chemistry question.
Melissa:Yes. Packed with chemistry lessons with new answers to life's little mysteries. Mhmm. I I'm really excited. I am glad we took this break because it gave me time to catch up on my work life.
Melissa:I'm trying to graduate, and the last year Grad school can be really difficult.
Jam:Mhmm.
Melissa:But we are gonna change things up a little.
Jam:Yeah. So we're going to adjust the intervals at which we release new episodes for a few reasons, in order to allow also to have time to research and stuff like that. We've talked about that in a few episodes in the past how Her research time has increased as we've gotten deeper and deeper into newer territory, newer topics.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And so we'll have a new episode every other week.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And we'll also still have a q and r episode every month.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:And we will have also a way of Trying to bring older episodes that still have a lot of really cool chemistry content that maybe not everybody's heard. Bringing those back up into the feed And having those be republished so people can find them easily and check those out who might not have heard them before.
Melissa:Right. Absolutely. And I'm really excited for this change because I'd been feeling like it was more difficult to put out high quality content on a schedule of 6 episodes a month with the QRs and the Mhmm. And the experiments, the chemistry at home. But just until I graduate and figure out what I'm doing next, This release schedule will allow us to keep putting out consistent, high quality content without being too much of a burden on my Work schedule as I try to wrap up grad school.
Jam:Yeah. Totally. Consistency was one of the things that kept coming back to us when we were talking about this. And Frequent new episodes.
Melissa:Right.
Jam:Not having a new episode every single week, but making sure that it's a consistent rhythm and not something that fluctuates all the time or whatever. So
Melissa:Right.
Jam:That's that we landed on this as a good kinda happy medium to make sure that that happens for you guys.
Melissa:Right. And we thought this would be a way to keep the quality of the show up in addition to the consistency Mhmm. While also not driving me to have a nervous breakdown. Yeah. As grad students in their final year are want to do.
Jam:Yeah. And we definitely don't want You too have a nurse breakdown. So
Melissa:No burning out.
Jam:Yeah.
Melissa:We can still enjoy the podcast.
Jam:Absolutely.
Melissa:So we wanna thank you guys so much for your support. I mean, it really means so much to me that y'all are so excited about chemistry And that you reach out consistently and share that you're excited about the show and that you're enjoying listening, that really does bring so much joy to us and help us know that we're accomplishing our goal here. And we really and truly Could not do this podcast without listeners like you all.
Jam:Yeah. Absolutely. And, like, today's topic, the question we got from Kate, Really good question, and it was great to have a chance to just talk through it in a longer format like these minis have allowed us to do.
Melissa:But Right.
Jam:Excited to get back to the normal Routine a little bit more, but if you have a question like Kate, whether it's a long question like that or an idea for a topic or just a small question for a q and r, Don't hesitate to write in. You can do that on Gmail, Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook at Kim for your life. S kim, f o r, your life to share your thoughts and ideas. If you'd like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to kodashfi.com/chem for your life, and donate the cost of a cup of coffee. If you're not able to donate, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast app and rating and writing our view on Apple Podcasts.
Jam:That also helps us to share chemistry with even more people.
Melissa:This episode of chemistry for your life was created by Melissa Coleenie and Jam Robinson. Jam Robinson is our producer, and thanks for a special appearance by Mason Clapwell.
Jam:Nice.
