121 Fall Mini 06
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Melissa: hey, I'm Melissa.

Jam: I'm Jam.

Melissa: And I'm a chemist

Jam: And I'm not

Melissa: and welcome to chemistry for your life.

Jam: The podcasts help you understand the chemistry of your everyday life. Mini edition

Melissa: It's actually not a super mini edition. It's more of a special edition, a limited edition, shiny Pokemon, if you will,

Jam: yes. And it's kind of yeah, busting the mold of the minis we've been doing in a lot of good ways.

Melissa: In a lot of good ways. So this episode is probably going to be a little bit longer than some of our other minisodes. It also is going to be more discussion-based and we're going to be talking about things that are really important in chemistry, but it's more social science

we're gonna delve into depths that we've not delved into before.

Jam: Absolutely.

Melissa: So a very exciting episode is planned for today. Jam already knows this, I guess I'm just telling the listeners, we have a guest expert.

Our guest expert is Vianet. She loves the podcast once she got very excited to see Jam and I who she also knows in real life, out at a restaurant.

Jam: And she's known us well before we ever did the podcast. So it's like, yeah,

Vianet: I had just listened to y'all in my car. So it was like hearing you in my car and walking to the restaurant. And I was just meeting a famous

person.

Jam: Yeah mean, it made us feel great. So we appreciate it. So the encouragement that we get from Vianet, it has fueled this podcast in many ways.

Melissa: It's so true. So she listens, she also reviews the podcast. So one of the reviewers that we always thank at the end of the episode, Vianet is one of those. She loves science and she is a great friend, and she's also an incredible professional. She is a licensed professional counselor and she currently works as a counselor.

So she's a different kind of expert is not a chemist, but she's still welcome here.

Vianet: Well, thank you. We call it the soft sciences.

Melissa: I don't know. That seems like it's kind of discriminating against your

Vianet: That is true. The social sciences,

Melissa: social sciences. She's a social scientist.

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: And she's actually here to talk about something that is very, very common in a lot of professions, but especially in science and that's something that many scientists I know personally have struggled with called imposter syndrome.

Also sometimes known as imposter phenomenon.

And I'm really excited that she's able to come and address this because this is so prevalent in the sciences. And I know that many of our listeners are interested in science as a career path or on the path to being a scientist already. And so we really want to address this issue now that we have a little bit of flexibility in these fall mini episodes. So Vianet, would you start by telling us something about your experience as a counselor, some of your education and what some of the jobs you've done?

Vianet: Of course, I have a bachelor's degree in rehabilitation studies, which is a big word for, I studied addictions and disabilities. And then I have a master's degree in clinical mental health sciences.

Melissa: Wow. That sounds fancy.

Vianet: does. It's a lot. I actually, as I said that, I'm like, that's a really lengthy degree. And I currently work at a middle school.

I am a crisis counselor, which means that I meet with all the kids that are having anxiety or suicidal ideation or self harm. And with ongoing pandemic, it is really, really prevalent right now.

Jam: I bet.

Vianet: So that's what I'm doing. And then before that I was a career counselor at a local university. But I've always worked at a private practice and I primarily work with Spanish speaking clients there.

Melissa: And why do you work with Spanish speaking clients Vianet?

Vianet: Oh, I am a Spanish speaker. It's actually my first language.

Melissa: wow. Well, wow.

Vianet: bilingual is pretty cool. I didn't always think that though, which we can dive into when we talk about being an imposter.

Jam: But it's definitely cool. Absolutely.

Melissa: is really cool. And we love that you are here on our show today.

Vianet: Me too.

Melissa: Okay. So I'm ready to dive in and learn all about imposter phenomenon. It's so fun to be the person learning on an episode. I love learning new things. So.

Jam: Yeah. And it's, interesting to be outnumbered by experts. I'm like, I've got, there's a two on one deal here where I'm like, I'm not expert in either of the things that are kind of the podcast, at least for this episode. So I am going to learn a lot too.

Melissa: But you are an expert in the podcast making, which is why we're all here today. So thank you for

Jam: Yes, you're welcome. I'm not going to bring a talk about it, cause it's not nearly as interesting for most people, but it is there it's subtly there.

Melissa: This bringing the noise to your ears right

Jam: Yes. Yes, you guys are welcome.

Melissa: All right, Vianet take it away.

Vianet: Yeah. So I just wanted to start off by asking both of you. When was the last time you guys felt really competent at something? And then when was the last time you felt really incompetent in something?

Jam: Dang. That is such a good question.

Melissa: That is a good question. And I have a quick answer because I experienced both of these poles of emotion regularly. I felt very competent. Recently, I went to a conference. I got to share actually about chemistry for your life there at the conference. And I was able to go to a lot of talks about chemistry, education and research.

And I learned how much I learned because I had a lot of thoughts and a lot of questions, and I felt, oh, I really belong here at this conference. I know what's going on. So that was a good feeling, probably not this week, cause it was, are the conference, but probably every single time I teach, I have a feeling of fear that I'm not competent enough, but I think the last big time was actually about the podcast.

Sometimes I worry that I'm really not qualified to teach as many people as I'm teaching here on the podcast. So really right before we decided to switch to fall minis, I was feeling kind of overwhelmed and had that feeling about being on this show actually.

Vianet: That's kind of how I felt when you asked me to be on it. So

Melissa: So you get it.

Vianet: totally get it

Melissa: It is scary. When you think about how many people are going to be learning from you, but I know you're qualified, just like, you know, I'm qualified, but it's hard to believe that about yourself. What about you jam?

Jam: Okay. This is a hard one and I wish I had maybe had like known ahead of time, but I have some answers. That I thought of that aren't maybe the most recent, but are somewhat recent. So yesterday you guys, most of you know that I work for our church and some of the work that I do, just spending time with people and talking through kind of what they're dealing with in the.

Melissa: Yeah,

Jam: And that's hard and it's not something often feel qualified to do yesterday. There was a guy I was spending time with who simply had a kind of simple question about conflict with somebody. And it wasn't really, it was actually something I've experienced before, and we've all had conflict with people.

And this case, just in the moment, when a surprising, that's not normal for me not feeling like very confident often that I had a handful of things that immediately came to mind that I was able to share. And I thought like, you know, actually think that that was pretty good for once or whatever.

Melissa: For once.

Jam: And so for me, I don't ever feel like so puffed up that I'm like, I am unstoppable, doesn't happen to me, but I felt good in that, in that, after that conversation.

But then about a week and a half ago, another church related thing, where there was an event that I was planning that we were all at

Melissa: Oh yeah.

Jam: and I had to do a lot of. For this retreat, you had to speak at it. And I felt like an imposter the entire time.

Melissa: And

Jam: even like, while I was speaking was just feeling like I'm not, not an expert in this.

And don't feel like, really confident that I know I'm talking about, but I have to just get through it anyway and sort of pretend like I do. And so, and it was hard. It was like a weekend full of nothing but being an imposter.

Vianet: well, no one could tell he did amazing.

Melissa: Couldn't tell.

Jam: Well, I tricked you guys,

Vianet: We've been tricked.

Jam: but that's a great question thing. Thanks for asking that.

Vianet: Yeah, of course.

Melissa: I want to encourage the listeners to also just take a minute to think of that also for yourself. When was the last time you felt really competent in a situation and when was the last time you felt like you were not competent?

Jam: Hm.

Vianet: And to add that for our listeners, , I would encourage you to think about which of those was easier to think about is for myself when I was going through my notes, I know that I could think of multiple times when I felt like an imposter and very few where I was like, oh, I really knew what I was talking about.

Melissa: Right.

Vianet: Yeah. So definitely keep that in mind. But I just want to define it just in case anyone doesn't know what the imposter syndrome is, but a person with imposter syndrome has a constant fear of being exposed as a fraud because they believe that they have fooled everyone around them, into overrating, their abilities and their competence.

So very similar to what Jam was saying that feeling that he had all last weekend and even the name, imposter syndrome, imposter phenomenon, imposter effect, those are all different ways to describe what we believe, what a lot of people have beliefs to be an internal feeling. And it's why they use words like imposter or effect or a phenomenon, all three of those.

I actually don't like any of them imposter implies that it has to do something about me. I believe that I am not qualified, which there is some aspect to that phenomenon. Implies I did something that just happens. No reason for it. It just, it just occurs. Yeah. And in fact, I actually have heard that when the least and right. now earlier Melissa she said, and I was like, oh Yeah. I've heard that one too.

So I haven't had too much time to think about what I believe, but imposter syndrome and phenomenon just both have a negative connotation.

Jam: Yeah. Definitely.

Melissa: Right.

Vianet: So some research suggests that what we know as the impostor syndrome could be a leftover form of anxiety. A primitive survival mechanism meant to anticipate potential threats. So have you always felt like something bad or was happened was about to happen, then you're always ready for it. Other research suggests that a self-induced feeling of failure or a low self-esteem serves as an internal mechanism to constantly seek higher levels of achievement,

Melissa: Oh

Vianet: as sounds terrible

Melissa: yeah,

Vianet: yeah,

It's like, I want to do well for other reasons and just feeling terrible about myself the whole

Jam: Right,

Melissa: yeah, exactly.

Jam: it's like the difference of like, almost like the difference of positive reinforcement and negative. It's like, almost like it's saying evolutionarily negative reinforcement helped us grow, but no one likes that compared to positive, you know?

Vianet: mean, I guess we were getting eaten by a lion then maybe. Yeah. You know?

Jam: That would be negative for sure.

Vianet: Yeah. Yeah. So from my own experience as a therapist, I think that regardless of the genetic reasons why humans experience imposter syndrome, there are some systemic issues in our society that exacerbate what may or may not be a genetic human trait.

That's especially true of you're part of underrepresented populations, but it's true for everyone.

So I want to make that, make sure that's clear throughout that I'm going to be speaking a lot about women specifically and women of color, but that, that doesn't mean that they're the only ones who experience it.

Jam: Right, Right,

Vianet: And so just to clarify right. off the bat, I believe that imposter syndrome has more to do with how people are treated in their environments than with an internal lack, an internal locus of control or a lack of self-esteem.

Melissa: That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that for my own experience, I always think it's my own fault that I feel that way. Wow.

Vianet: I actually, that is a new belief for me. So one of the big changes that I've had in how I view imposter syndrome occurred at a conference two years ago. And the presenters talked about how it has more to do with how people are treated in their environments than with an internal sense of who they are or a lack of self-esteem.

And so I'm not saying that there isn't an internal aspect to it, but I am saying that whatever natural genetic feeling may be, there is often exacerbated or lessened by their environment.

Jam: Got it. Okay.

Melissa: Yeah, I can definitely see that I've been a scientist in two different environments. And just in my anecdotal experience where I was treated really well, that's the environment I'm in now. My bosses are so kind, so encouraging. I have those thoughts, but I can kind of calm them down with reality. But when I was in a less nurturing environment, I didn't have any evidence to counteract those beliefs.

And so I just really lived in them a lot.

Vianet: And I think that's true for women in most fields. I was just thinking about how, when I get up in the morning, if I want to make sure that the teachers that I work with or the, even the students that I'm trying to help feel better, or their parents that I'm going to have to wear makeup. I know that if I don't wear makeup, they're going to ask me if I'm tired.

If I feel sick, if something happened they're going to tell me, I can take the day off because I clearly need some time off. So even in just making sure that I am seen as a qualified professional, I already have to put on literally a face every morning to be seen as, Hey, you're qualified versus my colleagues who are male.

They just show up to work in a jeans and a t-shirt.

Jam: Got it. Got it.

Melissa: I think in some situations, men do try to appear professional, but I definitely think the expectation is in those same situations is higher on women. There are examples where I would not feel comfortable going into a conference in jeans or wearing no makeup while I know that my male counterparts will do that.

I even saw that at the conference I was at that weekend this past week.

Jam: And I would say as a guy, I don't think it's as I want, I want to dress nice. I want to be seen a certain way, but I don't directly think it has to do with how much people perceive my knowledge or experience or expertise necessarily. I think it's, it's a kind of separate, like obviously looking nice has its own value and it, we all, we, some some of it's just like to look nice.

That's one thing for sure, but I don't feel like I've experienced a difference of people thinking I'm either smarter or more knowledgeable or less

specifically based on what I wear and that, I don't know that for sure, but I definitely don't feel like I've experienced.

Melissa: I definitely have experienced that. I dress a certain way to teach because of that

here.

Jam: Got it. Yeah.

Vianet: Yeah. Even on like comfy days at my job, I always make sure to wear something that looks remotely nice and he's apparent, randomly shows up. So,

Jam: That's interesting. That makes sense.

Vianet: Yeah. In one of the examples that I wanted to talk about didn't happen to me, but it happened to a coworker at different place of work than where I'm at right now. And she already felt like she didn't quite fit in or belong in our field. She was very short, so always was told like, oh my gosh, you're so cute.

Even though she was a 30 year old woman.

Jam: Yeah.

Vianet: yeah.

And we were at an event where a speaker came and the speaker um, we were being introduced to her and the speaker, all of a sudden saw her and she was wearing braids. She was a black woman and the speaker literally grabs her and starts sniffing her hair in front of.

Melissa: Uh,

Vianet: A room full of professionals and starts asking her. So how often do you wash these? And then if I was your mama with a black scent I would make sure that you wash these every day and literally no one in the room said anything myself included. So I, I feel a lot of regret when I think about like, I didn't speak up,

Jam: Yeah.

Vianet: In this this peer, she left that job within like two months after that.

And it was just kind of like, she already felt like I don't do a good job. In this position, I don't really have the knowledge to be here. And then something like that happens, it just adds to man, I really don't belong here. So what

Melissa: different. I was singled out. Something happened to me that didn't happen to anyone else. I really don't belong.

Vianet: Yeah. Like with that idea of like, someone's going to find out that I tricked my way into this. Like for her, that was like a huge moment where it felt like, oh, they really did figure out I'm not supposed to

Melissa: Oh, gosh,

that's

Vianet: that was really hard and she's not in stem, but I do want to move into women in stem.

Cause I know that it's a mini and I just want it to go. I just want to share that. Cause it was, it's been a really prominent example of how an environment makes someone feel like they're like they're less than, or not really meant to be there.

Jam: Yeah, totally.

Vianet: But when it comes to women in stem, a study done by the national academy of sciences of the United States of America.

Melissa: Nice.

Vianet: They found that all the women outnumber men and undergraduate enrollments, they are much less likely than men to major in mathematics or or science because of their internal assumption that they won't be successful.

And the very real aspects of discrimination they experienced in the field. And then their research studied whether a candidates, appearance male or female impacts the ability of them to be hired. If they do choose to go into math and science and they found that women are a lot less likely to be hired, if the job is going to involve some sort of analytical mathematical or science aspect to it.

Jam: Dang.

Vianet: Yeah.

Melissa: And I would like to say personally for that, I did not feel this sense that I didn't belong in my undergrad experience, but that feeling set in very quickly when I got to graduate school and throughout my time, people have said things to me, like I'm surprised that you're an organic chemist, you know, as a woman.

Or I have been at institutions where there were certain professors who it was not openly discussed, but all the women knew that that professor didn't hire women or all the women knew to avoid a certain person because they treated women inappropriately

Jam: Hmm.

Melissa: and they were in positions of power. And so they, that just was sort of brushed under the rug.

So with those experiences since my undergrad, I think that feeling of I don't belong here, this isn't, my field really was amplified quite a lot. And that in my current situation, I really appreciate my bosses.

They treat me so well, but I still constantly have that fear that they're going to figure out that I'm not smart enough. I'm not good enough. I don't work hard enough. And they're going to realize it was a mistake to take a chance on me and to let me be in this program. And so I definitely know that that feeling of from undergrad to graduate school and being with a lot of women and a lot of other people who had similar interests as mine, and then going to grad school and me being when I started actually in my graduate program, I was the only woman in the organic department.

And so I did feel that sense that I don't really belong a lot heavier, I think, than some of my male counterparts.

Jam: Yeah. And that's interesting how the things you mentioned, so many of them were hat were environmental. So like you may have already had it. And so maybe your male colleagues also did too, but then the environmental aspects of the situations you're specifically in were specific to women that would exasperate well, you're talking about

vianet and that's just, that's so interesting.

So many things, the one you gave in that one are like these environmental things that are so obvious that would have a clearly unfair, like leaning to them that the men aren't worried about

not being

Melissa: men in our Many men that I've talked to also about some of these things have no idea that they're going on while the women that are in that field or environment all know about those things. We all have experienced them and discuss them.

Whereas our male counterparts or colleagues aren't aware, unless we specifically tell them, oh, this person consistently makes me uncomfortable. Oh, this person, historically won't have meetings with women. You know, then, then their eyes are open in there. Then they become aware, but they don't have to worry about that on a day-to-day basis.

The way we do

Jam: Right, right.

Vianet: actually one of the studies that I looked at found that 98% of all professional women, regardless of their fields experience, imposter syndrome. That's almost a hundred percent.

Melissa: wow.

Vianet: Yeah. I couldn't find one that could tell me a good, a study that could tell me a percentage of men. But I did find one that said that men that do experience feelings of being an imposter.

Eventually those feelings go away. They're lessened by their environment. So maybe they started out in the chemistry department. And they felt like, man, I don't really know if I'm really good at this. I I don't know if this is the Right. field, but they look around in a lab and everyone looks like them, everyone else's male, their professors are male.

They can roll out of bed and show up to work without worrying about how they look, they're going to be treated based on their accomplishments and not based on assumptions by someone. And eventually they're going to feel a little bit less than that's not true for everyone, but for the majority of the people that from this study that was.

Melissa: I've also heard about that in the sciences, there was a panel and there's a woman who is tenure track and a man who is tenure track. And the man talked about that feeling when they were asked a question about imposter syndrome, about how it's gone away. And the woman said that has not been my experience at all.

It is very bad still today. And she was a very accomplished, very well-respected scientists, but it was hard for her to believe that whereas the, the man had really overcome some of those feelings over the few years that he was on the tenure

Jam: Hm.

Vianet: in that same study, they found that both male and female undergrads are more likely to explain a woman setback in science because of a factor about the person. So like Melissa could not handle the pressure and she messed up her experiment

Jam: Uh,

Vianet: Jam was let go from his research assistant job because the supervisor was mean,

Jam: I see.

Melissa: Whoa

Jam: Interesting.

Vianet: So it's like, it's about me.

I did something wrong and oh, something was done to them. It wasn't

Jam: Yeah.

Yeah.

Vianet: And that, that varied based on gender.

Jam: Interesting dang wow.

Vianet: And adding to some of the stuff that I just described, the lack of role models in stem, which Melissa has already been talking about. It just adds to why women might feel like they fooled everyone in. They're actually not supposed to be there. It's a never ending cycle women aren't represented. So they feel like imposters and don't go into stem.

And if they don't go into stem, then women won't be represented. So Yeah. It's like, how do we fix it?

Jam: Yeah.

Vianet: Which is why I love this podcast so much. I really think that the work that y'all do is helping break down these barriers. I didn't mention it earlier, but I was actually biochem major when I first started undergrad and my very first day of biology.

My professor had half the class stand up and I happened to be in the half that stood up and he immediately, he's just like, all of you are gonna fail. Those of you that are sitting down, you're going to pass. And from then on, I had, in my mind, I'm going to fail. And I mean, I did, by the time I switched majors, I was failing all of my classes and I was running away from O-Chem because everyone talked about how terrible it was.

Melissa: that's my research area, but about, okay. My people's feelings about it, but I will say it was he trying to just represent that 50% of the class fails.

Jam: ask the same question. Yeah.

Melissa: And, but just the way he put it, made it feel like it reaffirmed that you were going to feel wow.

Vianet: I don't think he thought about like, oh, what if like these kids already feel like they're not supposed to be

Jam: Right. And also

Melissa: Oh, that's so sad. And makes me mad. Sorry, go ahead,

Jam: yeah, I was just gonna say, and also how helpful is it to be told, regardless of having people stand up or not that half of you are gonna fail? Like why would that even be something that a teacher's like, Hmm, let me make sure I tell them how many of them are gonna fail. Like that sounds not helpful at all

Melissa: I think they do it to underline how hard you're going to have to work. But I often think that you can communicate that message that you're going to have to work really hard in other ways and not set people up

to fail.

Vianet: he was the advisor for the biochem program. So I think he also felt like he was a gatekeeper.

Jam: I

Vianet: Yeah, So, but that added to it. It's like this person in power telling me I wasn't going to do

Jam: Yeah, absolutely.

Vianet: I mean, I'm not naturally good at science, but I do love it. So I I think in another life I could have been a scientist.

Melissa: in this life, you could have been a scientist. If you'd been in an environment that fostered your love of it, instead of an environment that made you believe that only a certain percentage of people could be successful or only a certain type of people. I try to start my class by saying, I want all of you to succeed.

You're going to have to work hard. Here's things to help you succeed. I don't start my class for saying half of you are going to fail. I hope that they all pass. You know, so that's really interesting. And I definitely think there is this idea of natural ability or a type of person that could be a scientist.

But I think a lot of that is the education system that kind of, in some ways, squashes the love of curiosity and science out of students instead of fostering that. So.

Vianet: Oh, for sure. And I, I'm not going to go too deep into intersect intersectionality by going back to my experience as a biochem chem major in my hall, there was maybe like 10 other girls who were all biochem and there were all white women and they all studied together and they all hung out into like the little area.

Right by the elevators where there's all these couches jam knows. Cause we, we lived in the same hall.

Melissa: Wait, you guys lived in the same hall, your same year. You started college together. I didn't know that.

Vianet: He was A tower

Jam: Yeah. Yeah,

Vianet: and I was B tower. Yeah,

Jam: Yup. Yeah. Yeah.

Pretty sweet.

Melissa: Can I quickly ask you to define intersectionality

Vianet: Absolutely. Yeah. So intersectionality is the idea that the barriers that you face are going to vary depending on the different identities that you hold. So like I am a woman, so there are some barriers that experienced because of that, but I am an educated woman. So I also have privileges because I hold a master's degree.

Like even just being on this podcast, like I would not be on this podcast without my education.

Jam: Right, right.

Melissa: And that often those barriers are different. So my barriers as a white woman, I definitely still have barriers that are up against me, but those are going to be different than your barriers as a woman of color, even though we're both women, because our identities intersect with one another, they're not just isolated.

You have this whole identity, that's different than my whole identity. And therefore our experience is very different.

Vianet: sure. And even for men, like of you're a black man, it's, there's going to be some barriers or experience. You can be a white male and you come from a low income household or you have a disability, but that is visible. Like you're in a wheelchair or invisible, you have autism and no one knows. So all of those things are going to add up to the level of privilege that you hold.

Jam: Yeah. That makes sense.

Vianet: But even like I was saying, going back to when I was a biochem major like there's these 10 girls and they, it felt like they were already friends. I actually don't know if they were, but they would always study together. And I never felt like I could go and study with them. I immediately like already felt like that's, that's not my group.

So I would study alone in my dorm and then I'd see them and they'd get their grades back. And I went to school on a full ride scholarship. So all of these girls had the same scholarship and whenever we'd have our scholarship meetings, I always felt like someone's going to realize I shouldn't have gotten this scholarship.

They're going to take the money away. And then there were all these girls that were in my classes and they were passing and I wasn't, I shouldn't have gotten the money. I shouldn't be here. And I really do think it was just my own negative self-talk that added to me failing a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But, and I added that because I wanted to focus on how the system is stacked even more when you hold more of those

identities and like I mean, specifically women of color in stem because that's just a, an area that I'm really interested in. So according to the pew research center, 9% of all women in stem are black woman.

8% are Hispanic women. 13 are Asian and 67% are white, 3% identified as other. So women are already underrepresented, but women of color are even more underrepresented. So going back to that example of, I was the only woman of color. And that hall that was also biochem. Yeah. And one of those girls she was in biochem.

She was an accounting major, but she still went and studied with them. At one point, she looked at me when we were talking about having been in high school together and not together, but having been in high school and having been in national what is

Jam: Honor society.

Vianet: now? The one where like, yes. Okay. So I was not a national merit scholar browse, a national Hispanic scholar, which the bar is lower.

I don't know how I feel about that. But when she, when I clarified to her, like, oh no, I wasn't national merit. I was national Honor She looked at me and she's like, oh, because I was going to say you were National merit Not even I was national

Jam: Oh gosh.

Melissa: Oh no.

Vianet: was like little instances like that, that it's like, Yeah. what am I doing here?

Melissa: Yeah.

Vianet: I shouldn't be.

Melissa: And I know I had those feelings often as a woman in graduate school, but looking around my department, there are other women, they weren't in my division, but there are other women, but they're only one or maybe two American women of color in our entire department. And so I can imagine that feeling would have been significantly amplified if there was no one else who looked like me, you know?

Vianet: In those percentages found by the pew center, they're pretty much the same across all fields.

Melissa: Yeah.

Vianet: Yeah. So it's just the feeling of I'm an imposter. It's just exacerbated even more by all of these environmental pieces of I'm the only one. And then I wanted to focus specifically on hair when I have curly hair, but I definitely don't want to assume that my experience is the same as someone who is a black or indigenous and their hair is a little bit differently, but I was just shocked to learn that California became the first state to prohibit discrimination against workers in students based on their natural hair in 2019.

Jam: Oh, wow.

Melissa: So when you say that does have a law against discrimination against hair in 2019, what do you mean against natural hair?

Vianet: So there were several instances that were documented to get this law passed of women and men who wore dreadlocks or braids or dresses or natural curly hair. And they walked into their place of work or school. And there were told that is not professional or that does not meet our student dress code.

So you're suspended or we're gonna fire you because you're, we don't find your dreadlocks to be professional.

Melissa: And I want to clarify too, when we talk about naturally curly hair for women of color, this isn't something, their hair is not kept it's, they've kept their hair. It's washed, it's clean. It's presentable. That is the, the person we're talking about. I've used this example before and people said, oh, well, if I went into work and I didn't do my hair also, but that's not what we

Vianet: Now it's

Melissa: hair is done.

Vianet: their hair as they, either as they were born. Just literally what can that other head or they have like braids that they went and paid a ton of money for and spend a ton of hours getting their hair done.

and the social up to work. And they're told, Yeah.

that's not professional.

You're fired. So can you imagine like, being that person, that's like, oh my gosh, I feel so lucky to be here. I hope they don't find out. I don't actually like qualify

Jam: Huh.

Vianet: and then they're like get fired for their

Jam: Yeah. So they, as insignificant as their hair, that has nothing to do with how good their other job and how knowledgeable they are, how much experience and how much expertise they have is what, what gets them fired. That's crazy.

Melissa: And many people I know men specifically would literally roll out of bed and come to work in labs with their hair. I think it's a little different in grad school. I would never have done that, but with their hair clearly uncombed, unwashed, they were lacking basic hygiene. And this is not that situation.

Their hair clean presented, and that's still not good

Vianet: Yes.

Melissa: So the fact that the standard is so different is really unbelievable and heartbreaking.

Vianet: And the fact that that was just three years ago, I think that's the most shocking. And even with that, I as I read more about it for this episode, I learned that the law didn't actually like go into effect until 2020, which as we all remember is when we, if you're a white collar worker you started working from home, which means that the impact of this new law hasn't really been felt. Yeah.

So even like, as we speak right now in 2021, I'm not sure. How impactful it has been because for so many of us we've been working from home.

Jam: Yeah. Yeah,

Vianet: But so that law it's called the crown act. And it was considered as a law, like I said, because of series of high profile cases. And I have a few marked and the ones that I have marked are from school, because it, I can imagine how much more impactful it is to be a kid and to be suspended because of your hair.

So in 20 17, 2 sisters in Massachusetts were giving detention because their school determined that their brain, their braids violated school policy, and that same year, the state of Massachusetts found they're refusing to hire someone because of their dreadlocks is legal, legal. yeah. And I imagine for the state of Massachusetts to even have to say, Hey, you can do this. This is legal. It means that it must have happened somewhere. And they took it to court and the court still said, Yeah.

you can fire them. It's okay. In, in 2008, a six-year-old in Florida was suspended because of his hair again.

Just last year in 18 year old in Texas was also suspended for his dreadlocks in the school was set on their decision. He was going to miss his prom and graduation and in order to go to it, he actually just changed. He would drew from that school district and enrolled somewhere else.

Melissa: Oh my gosh. That's heartbreaking.

Vianet: So again, like I don't have the stats, but men of color graduate from high school out of a lot lower rates than their counterparts.

So can you imagine, like you're graduating, you're doing it and then it's like, your hair is, what's keeping you away.

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: I cannot imagine.

Vianet: Yeah. Just like, talk about like, feeling like an imposter.

Jam: Yeah.

Vianet: And so we've been talking a lot about here and women and women of color just how the experience of imposter syndrome at higher levels, because of the discrimination they experienced at a systemic level.

But I also, like, I always want to make sure we know that everyone experiences this.

So I wanna make sure that that's always there as a therapist. Like if you're feeling like an imposter and you're like, well, this episode isn't for me, like, don't feel that

Jam: Hmm.

Melissa: Now this episode is for you.

Vianet: Absolutely. It's for your life.

Jam: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Vianet: But the last thing I have on the crown act is that since California did the first law, only New York and New Jersey have enacted similar laws and 22 additional states are considering a law, but haven't actually done it, which means that in 47 states you can fire someone because of their hair.

Jam: Wow.

Vianet: Yeah. And there's been some opportunities to pass it as a federal level in the last year and it has not passed.

Jam: dang.

Vianet: So can you imagine trying to feel like you're a professional thinking, oh, well the, at a federal level they're saying that someone can fire me because of this

Jam: Yeah, I've gone to school for whatever I've gone to school for. And I've gotten whatever job and someone can still just fire me because of my hair. Not because of what I know or how good I am. My job.

That is so weird.

Vianet: Yeah. And so I mentioned all of those things again, to emphasize the environmental piece, like sure. Maybe at some point when we were hunting lions, we genetically felt the need to consistently try to do better to survive. And maybe that feeling stuck there and that's the imposter syndrome. And may we'll have it when we're little in one way or another, but a six-year-old who's suspended from school because of their hair is going to have that feeling a whole lot more often than someone who can just go to school and be who they are and feel loved it, feel bad.

Melissa: Right.

Jam: Yeah.

Vianet: And I could go on and on, but I want to hear a little bit more from Jen and Melissa. So I know earlier I asked about like the last times that y'all felt like imposters, but I just kinda wanted to hear a little bit more about y'all's experiences and how you might feel competent or incompetent in this podcast.

And Melissa, you already touched on it a little bit earlier, so that's Perfect.

because I wanted to hear about it. So if you want to expand.

Melissa: Yeah. So I definitely have experienced this even with a really good work environment that fosters my creativity. And we're actually, my advisors are both women. I think that has gone a long way in helping me believe I'm legitimate. But I do worry that they'll realize it was a mistake to take a chance on me and that I am not as good of a student as they think, and they'll regret it.

I don't really think I'm going to be fired at this point. There's enough evidence to kind of counteract that, but that is something I struggle with. And then even on this podcast, I do worry that if a quote, unquote, real chemist and we'll talk about what it means to be a chemist actually in the next episode.

But I worry that if a real chemist listens to me, they're going to judge me because they'll know if I get something wrong. And I know that's not really something based in reality because I can't know everything. And we have a policy that if I do make a mistake, I will correct it as quickly as possible. And I know that we've put those things in place in many quote, unquote, real chemists do listen and enjoy the show, but it is just a fear that I consistently have when I'm telling other chemists about the podcast. I also have really worried at different points have been racked with anxiety that if I am getting something wrong, if I'm teaching in an area outside my expertise, we've talked about that.

I'm a chemist, but that doesn't mean I know everything about everything that what if I'm doing more harm than good? What if I'm spreading fear-mongering? What if I'm doing poor science communication and I've even considered, is it worth it to keep going on this podcast? If I'm going to be hurting people. And I really had to have people speak into that fear and tell me that I'm not an imposter. I do belong on this podcast. I have the knowledge and the expertise to talk about chemistry. Do you need to keep going, but I think there are other people who wouldn't have had this that's

Vianet: I think that's

where like some counseling techniques come in and it seems like you've had people help you fight those thoughts, but I would really encourage our listeners. I was gonna say our readers. Our listeners and teachers really fight the thought that you don't belong. Like we just spent the last, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes learning about how it has to do with your environment.

So the next time that you feel like what I'm doing, isn't okay. Or it's hurting someone or someone's going to find out, just fight it. Like you're there for a reason. And then if we look at the numbers in 98% of women feel that way, then just find another woman that's in the room and say like, Hey, I'm feeling this way.

Can you, can you help me out with it?

Melissa: Yeah.

Vianet: And if you're a man, you can do that too.

Jam: Yeah,

Melissa: Yeah. Definitely.

Jam: I was going to say a story that came to mind for me, as I said a second ago, I still definitely experience imposter syndrome, phenomenon effect or whatever, but I remember this story that came to mind from when I first got my first job out of college. I got hired hourly as a video editor for a nonprofit that I really liked and was excited about and hope to continue working with.

And I was also just navigating the new feeling of being out of school now and working for the first time, post graduation and stuff. And, and I just kept feeling so. Yeah, like I had tricked them into hiring me and I wasn't great at what I was doing. And especially with something really technical, like video stuff, I feel like I knew I knew the software better than almost all my classmates when I was in school.

But suddenly I was in an actual work environment.

Melissa: right.

Jam: And I just felt like it was so easy for me to feel like I don't know what I'm doing at all. And and when are they going to figure out that I don't know how to make the best videos and make you know, have it draw the most donations for the nonprofit, all that kind of stuff.

And I was explaining these feelings to a friend of ours that we all know named Ryan. And that was the first time I ever heard the phrase imposter syndrome. I didn't know it was a thing I would just felt like I hate this and I feel so horrible every day. And I kind of dread going to work. Not because I don't like the work, but because I just don't feel like I'm supposed to be there and stuff.

And he told me about that feeling that he felt it so much too. And I just didn't know. It makes such a difference to have like language for something. Even if that phrase is imperfect. I can't tell you guys how much it, how much it helped me. And hopefully you listeners as well. Just to know that this is a real thing that almost everybody has experienced, even though the experiences in the amount of it can vary from person.

It makes me feel so much better just to know that, like, there's a real word for this and it's normal. And other people experienced it too, and I don't need to feel like I'm the only one and just stuff like that. And that story has always stuck with me. Anytime I've talking with someone else, who's sharing similar feelings with me or when I'm in a new environment.

And I feel that in a new, all over again, kind of way, I'm like, okay, remember whenever I was told about this and I'm sure other people have felt this way and you don't know just that, that story has always stuck with me, but it makes a big difference to have verbiage and language and, and and to talk about it with other people.

And then for them to say like, oh, I felt, I feel that too.

Melissa: I,

Jam: That is just so helpful.

Melissa: I definitely think that's an ally that men have less than. Men don't talk about imposter syndrome as much. I remember I sat in a presentation about imposter syndrome and they said, there's this percentage of men who feel that they're imposters, but there's this percent of men who talk about it. And it was significantly smaller.

Whereas women, there was a higher percentage who felt that way, but a higher percentage who felt comfortable telling others about it. That's a unique hurdle.

Vianet: I want to touch on like putting the names to something is earlier when I heard Melissa talking about like all of the thoughts that she had, I was like, oh, you're doing black or white thinking. You're doing all or nothing thinking like, and it's not all or nothing. Life is so full of gray. Like maybe there's one episode where you said something that wasn't completely 100% accurate, but that doesn't mean that you're harming your listeners.

It's not all or nothing.

Melissa: And I know that for science, but it's hard for me to know that about myself or my effect on the world.

Vianet: Oh, for sure.

Melissa: So if you are a scientist or if you are a professional person working, who has these feelings, I guess we want to wrap up by saying, you're not alone and you do belong in that environment, or you wouldn't have gotten there.

The fact that you're concerned about doing a good job shows that you really do care about the place you're working in. So don't feel like you don't belong and keep going because we need more people to be in science and to be in the professional world who do really care about the job that they're doing.

And if you need someone to talk about it, you can always email us or try to find someone else who's experienced that and talk to them because that is really helpful,

Vianet: And if you're seeking for therapy psychology today is a really good website to find therapist. So I get a lot of people say like, Hey, do you know someone? I was like, I don't know too many people. Yeah, but if you go on psychology today, you can always find there are all over the nation. I don't know if they're outside of the United States.

Cause I know you have cool listeners all over the world.

Melissa: We do have cool listeners all over the world.

Vianet: Yeah,

but definitely therapy, super helpful. It'll help you fight those thoughts of I don't belong or even trying to understand how it's your environment. That's making you feel like an imposter in it's not yourself.

Melissa: Right. And I do go to counseling and it has really helped. So we want to take the stigma away from that. That's helped me succeed. That's helped me create this podcast that helps me continue to believe that I can be in this spaces I'm in.

Jam: and I also go to counseling. So

there we go. Three for three.

Melissa: That's the message. I want you guys to leave with that. You know, you belong in these spaces and you should go to counseling if you are feeling this way and try to fight those thoughts. But I did want to see if you have any Vianet if you have any coping mechanisms that people can use to help fight those thoughts.

Cause just fighting them without evidence can be really difficult or I'm really good at finding evidence to agree with them. So I wonder what your thoughts were.

Vianet: Yeah. I think relationships are really, really important. That's what therapists actually practice from a theory that says that health, emotional health comes from relationships. So Melissa, like you were saying, like you had people speaking to you even just sitting here talking with y'all about, I already feel like, oh, maybe, maybe I am a, an expert.

Maybe, maybe I do belong in this field. So something like talking to your friends, to family, building strong relationships where you can share some of the thoughts that you're having, that's really, really important. And then trying to find small evidence that you are doing a good job.

So you were saying that you can find a ton of evidence of how you're doing a bad job, but I'm sure that there are equally amounts of evidence that say, like, you're doing a good job. So I'm sure your listeners like send in emails and say how amazing you're doing. But then there's a one listener that says like, Hey, actually in this episode, this is what you should have said instead.

And that's going to stick with you because our brain I don't know, this is genetically, but I know in My classes we learned, like we just naturally the negative sticks with us a lot more than the positive. So it's you actively have to go and find those positives.

Melissa: My sister made a file for anytime. Anyone said something kind or encouraging on her email and will put it in that file so that she can look back at that anytime something, you know, she starts to feel this way.

Jam: That's a good idea.

Vianet: and then the other thing, like, we talk so much about the environment, so it look around you and try to figure out what it is about, where you're at, that maybe is adding to that internal feeling. And maybe just talk it out, see if you can change it, see if you can have someone else become aware of what's happening and speak up if you see it happening to other people.

For sure. But I think we spend so long talking about the environment, so that has to be something that we do as well.

Melissa: Those are really great ones.

Jam: Yeah, definitely.

Melissa: Well, thank you so much. Vianet for coming and sharing with us today.

Jam: Absolutely.

Vianet: Before we go, can we do that thing where you say that you're a chemist? And I'm not every time I listened to the show, I say it.

in my head. So

Melissa: A hundred

Jam: Let's do it like our normal one. And then just after me, you say whatever you want to say. So like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Vianet: Okay.

Melissa: Hey, I'm Melissa

Jam: I'm Jam

Vianet: And I'm Vianet.

Melissa: And I'm a chemist,

Jam: and I'm not

Vianet: I'm not either.

Jam: nice.

Melissa: But you are a counselor. LPC in the house. Well, thank you so much Vianet for coming in leading this discussion about imposter syndrome effect phenomenon. It has been really helpful for me. And I know the other people talking to me about this when I was budding in my chemistry career.

And even now really encourages me to continue on the path I bought. And so I really hope that that has been your experience today, for those of you who are listening. And if you have any questions about, have imposter syndrome or thoughts or ideas, please feel free to write in.

Jam: Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for coming. And I love this topic too, because obviously we have a really interesting mix of audience. We have a lot of people, you guys who are studying some science and hoping to go into that at some point, or you already are in it, or you're like me, and you're not in some sort of science field, but you just like science.

And so this is a sort of freebie in a sense that this applies to so many fields, all fields, all types of people. And so hopefully you got something out of it that applied to you. I know I definitely did so Vianet.

Thanks for sharing with us.

Vianet: Thank you for having me.

Jam: And like Melissa said, if you have any thoughts or ideas on this topic or any other topic you can write in to us on Gmail, Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook at chemforyourlife, that's chem F-O-R your life to share your thoughts and ideas. If you'd like to help us, keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it go to ko-fi.com/chemforyourlife

and donate the cost of a cup of coffee. If you're not able to donate, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast, app and rating and writing a review on apple podcasts. That also helps us to share chemistry with even more people.

Melissa: This episode of chemistry for your life was created by Melissa Collini, Vianet Garza, and Jam Robinson references for this episode can be found in our show notes or on our website. Jam Robinson is our producer, and we'd like to give a special thanks to Vianet Garza, our guest on this episode.