146 Medicine
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[00:00:00]

Melissa: Hey, I'm Melissa

Jam: I'm Jam.

Melissa: I'm a chemist,

Jam: And I'm not,

Melissa: and welcome to Chemistry for Your Life.

Jam: The podcast helps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life.

Melissa: Okay, Jam. So today's episode is gonna be a little bit different, but before we get to that, it's very exciting. get to shout out all of our new Patreon supporters. So each new episode, we are going to say anyone new who's joined our Patreon team. And then at the end of the episode in the credits, we're gonna read every single person.

But this week there's a lot, because we just started Patreon this week, so this is kind of fun.

Jam: Yeah, so we are very thankful for you guys. Those new supporters on Patreon who joined in the last couple of weeks are Timothy P, Brie, M, Chris, and Claire, S Hunter, R Steven B, [00:01:00] Avishai B, Chelsea B, and Christina G.

Melissa: I'm so excited, and for those who are on our H Bonders tier, we're gonna get to do a coffee. And I'm so excited to hang out with people that we've gotten to know on the internet and that are excited about talking about chemistry.

We won't only talk about chemistry though in those coffee hours. It'll be other stuff too. I was gonna say fun stuff too, but chemistry's fun too. So I think that's gonna be really fun and I'm really excited, uh, for our Patreon. This is awesome and I don't know why we didn't do it sooner. . Okay, so now onto today's episode, Like I said, it's gonna be a little bit different.

It's not as much of a traditional episode where we have a big chunk of chemistry lesson, but it's kind of more of a story than a big lesson,

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: and there's scandal and intrigue and drugs and chemistry and, uh, the failing of a government office. And so the story kind of has everything.[00:02:00]

Jam: You basically just described the plot of Breaking Bad your favorite TV show.

Melissa: No, that's my least favorite TV show. I've never seen Breaking Bad. I'm taking a, what's that called when you're Oh, a con. I'm a conscientious objector

Jam: Yes. Yes. That's exactly what that means in too. I'm just kidding. I know you don't like it, but it was funny because. The way you said it was broad enough where could find a way of saying like, all this stuff that you said, actually just pick up. But anyway, I'm down. I'm interested, I like stories.

It sounds great. I'm along for this ride.

Melissa: Okay, well I think you've actually heard part of this story before, and I think you know about some of this story before because mostly because of your wife

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: is it's about medicine.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: Okay, So today's episode is all about nasal decongestants

Jam: Ah, okay.

Melissa: Yeah. I think you've heard part of this story, but there is a lot more to it that I didn't know about. Okay. So. This is more for our listeners and for [00:03:00] you the background here, but when you already know this, I think our listeners do too. When we were in Canada, I got Covid. It was kind of the worst. I felt terrible. So my husband ran to the store to get some decongestant, and he got Sudafed or pseudoephedrine here is often not available, just over the counter.

Jam: Right

Melissa: So I was kind of surprised and I asked, Oh, did you have to like go to the back to get this?

And he said, No, it was just out. And I was like, Wow, that's amazing. So we got some Sudafed or you know, whatever the off brand of Sudafed a Sudafed was. That's the ingredient on the back is for Sudafed, or you know, Advil, cold and sinus or whatever is sudo afedrin

Jam: mm-hmm.

Melissa: And when you read those active ingredients on the back, you'll find things out.

And usually do because I'm a nerd. And so like one thing I found out was Z-quil and Benadryl are actually the same active ingredient.[00:04:00]

Jam: right.

Melissa: So I love to read things on the back of labels and so, you know, I read, Oh wow, this really is pseudoephedrine. It was much cheaper and it was available over the counter.

That's cool. Then when we got home I was like, Well I'm really tired. I don't know if I wanna take a sudafed right before bed cuz it'll keep me awake. I'm gonna go take that other decongestant that we have. And my husband said, um, you've looked that up before and you told me it didn't work, . And I was What?

I don't remember that probably cuz I was sick when I looked it up. So I looked it up again and he was right, or I guess former me was right. It doesn't really work.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: Okay. So I think you knew that backstory already.

Jam: Yeah. I knew that there was something about the the different active ingredients and decongestants that mattered and that you had uncovered some insane scandal. Scandalous truth, but I, I ki I don't know the specifics.

Melissa: You don't, you don't [00:05:00] remember the specifics?

Jam: I mean, I know the difference between like pseudoephedrine and some of the other.

I just know that they're different, but I don't know why, I guess.

Melissa: Okay. Well, the other congestion that's often offered in America is called phenylephrine

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: and there are dozens of studies that show at the amount that that's sold over the counter in the United States that. It is no different than a placebo for nasal decongestion,

Jam: What

Melissa: dozens of studies, and there is even a petition to the FDA to remove its status as a decongestant, and yet it persists.

Jam: Dang. Yeah, I mean, it really seems like something should be done.

Melissa: It does seem like that and it's, it's like pretty much every brand in Texas. We have to show our ID to get anything with pseudoephedrine in it. We'll talk about [00:06:00] that later. But pretty much anything that you don't have to show your ID for, that's a decongestant, probably just has phenylephrine in it.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: and phenylephrine is the one that has been shown to have no difference between that and the placebo for nasal decongestant.

Jam: Okay,

Melissa: So it's, it's everywhere. It's all over the place and I kind of can't get over it. I was shocked and appalled. So here's some background on sudafed, which works, or pseudoephedrine, and then we'll talk also about phenylephrine so that you can get your little chemistry lesson. And then we're gonna talk about what's going on with the fda.

Okay. So pseudoephedrine, which as we've been using interchangeably, is also often sold under the brand name Sudafed, but it's also in other things. pseudoephedrine is an organic molecule. It does occur naturally, so in Bush's, um, with the genus of Fedra, and it seems like there's like 40, maybe 40 ish [00:07:00] species of shrub, shrub type plants that.

Are in this genus of Fedra

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: So, and this plant occurs naturally all over the world, which means that there are very cool roots of this plant already being used, or basically a pseudoephedrine already being used in medicine, medicinal practices with indigenous cultures.

So there's history of Native Americans, indigenous people to America using it to make both non medicinal and medicinal tea. And there is a history in China and the Middle East of that being used for thousands of years for really the same reasons that we use it because it's um, it can be a stimulant, it can help you breathe easier, things like that.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: So I always think that's cool when, you know, indigenous practices also line up with science how much we have to learn from that col, those cultures. So I wanted to definitely draw that out. [00:08:00] But usually when we have it, it would be made, um, not artificially I guess, but it would be made in a lab synthetically on purpose, not drawn out from the plant.

That's just easier and I think it's a more renewable practice, but there is kind of an interesting synthesis that's used to make this. So a lot of times when I think of making a natural product that occurs in nature, in the science lab, there's a lot of steps to. But pseudoephedrine is made using a biological synthesis, which basically means they have some other part of nature, some other biology do synthesis for them, which I love.

So dextrose, which is a type of sugar, is broken down in the presence of another chemical to make the precursor to pseudoephedrine and the way it's broken down. It's either fermented with yeast or a pure enzyme that would occur and something like yeast is used to break it down.[00:09:00]

Jam: Interesting.

Melissa: So basically the yeast do the chemistry, the synthesis for us,

Jam: little chemists.

Melissa: little chemist, , or you can just isolate the enzyme within the yeast that would do the breaking down.

So that's kind cool.

Jam: Yeah. Seriously.

Melissa: So, and for chemist, if you wanna know that, uh, dextrose is broken down with Benzaldehyde and, um, then you are really close to having pseudoephedrine, but there's one functional group that basically needs to be swapped out. So you're swapping out, um, I think it's a ketone for an amine, and that's called an amination.

So we've talked about functional groups before. Do you remember what they.

Jam: They are a specific, Combination of pattern of elements, molecules, or whatever that do a specific thing,

Melissa: It's elements, non molecules. So you kind of get two or three [00:10:00] elements that are arranged in this specific way. Then they act the same way over and over again. So we talked about alcohols, um, within oxygen and a hydrogen. Those are, And then a means we've talked about before, that's a nitrogen with some hydrogens around it.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: And we also talked about how in methamphetamine the amine. That's a functional group. And so, um, it's the same kind of functional group here. You take the precursor, quote unquote, that was made by the yeast, and you add an amine and you take something else off. So this is a good example of multi-step synthesis.

The yeast did the first step and then the chemist will finish it out with the second step. And that's pretty simple in terms of making a product that occurs naturally. I mean, there are. Steps that are 10 or 20 steps, synthesis of this being a two step synthesis. I was like, wow, that's pretty easy. So good job on the yeast and the enzyme [00:11:00] making this happen more effectively.

That's your little chemistry lesson. That's how we get pseudoephedrine and then there's biochemistry involved. I think it's a little too much to go into for this episode, but the thing it does that makes us feel better is it is a vasoconstrictor, that's what it's called.

So basically it takes down the swelling in your nasal passages so that you can literally breathe easier.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: And the reason it does that is because it has an effect on our nervous system. So it binds to certain receptors that send the signal to bring the swelling down, and that helps us out. The other effects it can have on our central nervous system is it can be a stimulating effect, which means you're more awake.

Sometimes. That though can also cause jitters anxiety and high blood pressure. So does good things if it's taken in too large of amounts or if you're really sensitive to that, it could also have some negative effects. But it's really good at [00:12:00] clearing our airways, drying out our nasal passages, and letting us breathe when we're congested.

Jam: got it.

Melissa: And thank goodness, because when I had Covid, I can't tell you how bad I felt. And then the moment I took Sudafed, it was like the clouds had opened up and I could see the heavens again.

Jam: Yeah. And that's so frustrating because like when you are super congested, it's super miserable. for taking something that basically doesn't really work, then that's super annoying.

Melissa: I know.

Jam: But something that does is. Such a miracle.

Melissa: Such a mirror. Yeah. When that Sudafed hit, I was like, I can breathe. I was so uncomfortable that even though it's a stimulator, I was finally able to sleep after I took the Sudafed in the height of being really sick. It was so awful. And so I was like, Ugh, this stuff is amazing. But actually it's not. I mean, it is amazing, but it's not that it's that amazing, it's just that it works.

And the thing I was used to using other than that [00:13:00] didn't work.

Jam: Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: So, yeah, it is frustrating. And also thanks, thank goodness for Sudafed. So let's talk about why that's not so readily available where we live.

So, uh, there are different laws in different states about this, but in Texas you actually have to show your driver's license to be able to get anything with pseudoephedrine in it. And there's a log of who got it because it is very close. In fact, just one more reaction in the reaction mechanism chain, the step by step synthesis to methamphetamine. So the amine that is added to make it effective as. A nasal decongestant is also the amine that makes it methamphetamine. So it has kind of a base chain that's the same, and you just have to add really one functional group. You just do one reaction to get it from Sudafed to methamphetamine.

Jam: Got it.

Melissa: So phenylephrine.

Actually, I have it written here. Enter my arch enemy, [00:14:00] phenylephrine. Phenylephrine was introduced by drug companies and actually approved by the FDA earlier than it became popular like in the 1970s.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: And so it was approved by the FDA based on some trials by the company at varying dosages, and it didn't really become popular until more restrictions started to be put on Sudafed.

Or other Sudafed products. So once they realized that this was being used to make methamphetamines because it's so close to methamphetamine, um, the government and state governments put varying amounts on it, but the government started to put some restrictions on sudafed

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: so. As Sudafed became restricted, there were rising instances of people purchasing phenylephrine. And so phenylephrine became more popular. And [00:15:00] when I say popular, I mean it's like ubiquitous. If you go to the drug store here, pretty much everything you see is phenylephrine.

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: But. There are no studies that are published in peer review journals that support the use of phenylephrine in the amount it sold as a nasal decongestant to effectively reduce nasal congestion.

Jam: Gosh,

Melissa: None.

Jam: that is

Melissa: So it seems like it passed by the FDA based on studies that were promising but not reality. One article I read said, Use the word specious or specious. I'd never heard that word before, but I looked it up and it was the perfect description of what I feel like happened.

Jam: Huh,

Melissa: It means superficially plausible, but actually wrong. So kind of like ostensibly, like it seems like that's right, but it's actually not.

Jam: Right, Right.

Melissa: I think those [00:16:00] preliminary studies that were presented to the FDA. Made it seem like it would be effective, but then all subsequent studies have shown that there is not a difference between phenylephrine and a placebo,

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: so it can be used for other things.

It does have a same effect on your central nervous system. The way I thought of it was, If you have the way meth affects your central nervous system and you crank it down a little bit and then you get pseudoephedrine , and that is a good nasal decongestant and it's way less stimulating. And then you crank it down even more and then you get phenylephrine, which does almost nothing

Jam: Got it. Got it.

Melissa: but it is way harder to turn into meth, which I think is part of why it's become popular with, um, like being sold over the counter.

Yeah.

Jam: and obviously if it's, if people are taking it and they're thinking it's working, there's a placebo effect, Then it's a bummer because, I mean, it's not really working, but it, [00:17:00] People are still, some people are still getting some decongestant effect. It's actually not really.

Melissa: from placebo.

Jam: Right. Man.

Or they think.

Melissa: they're getting it, even though they're not getting.

Jam: Or they're, Yeah, maybe they think they're getting it and their body's just getting, you know, is healing from whatever

Melissa: and oftentimes there's other stuff in there too, like, uh, ibuprofen or something that will, you know, reduce swelling or reduce inflammation or, you know, things that will make you feel better. just not getting any decongestion. It's funny that we're having this conversation cuz my allergies are bad today.

I have congestion today, yeah, it is the same type of compound, a pseudoephedrine. And so the big thing that it actually does effectively is it does increase your blood pressure. So if you have low BR blood pressure, this actually will help, and it's been approved for use and that, and we're also talking about it orally in the dose it's sold, which is usually like 10 milligram.

So there is some theory that in [00:18:00] different doses it might be more effective, and if it's applied as a nasal spray, it also could be more effective. But orally it's not really effective. And part of the reason why is because it is metabolized by your body. So when you take, um, a pseudoephedrine pill, the majority of that pill is going to be able to get to the receptors it needs to make the decongestion happen.

Jam: Got it.

Melissa: When you take a phenylephrine pill, only about the best estimates are less than 40% of the amount that you ingest gets to those receptors.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: So that means that's called bioavailability. How available is it to your system after metabolism?

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: So that's possible is that at lower doses, the majority of it is taken up by metabolism, but it could be that if you take a higher dose after it's metabolized, more will get to receptors and it will be more effective.

But there are no studies at the higher doses to show that that's [00:19:00] safe to do. So someone I know, I won't call out who told me that they, um, go scuba diving and they need decongestant and they will take a bunch of phenylephrine and they've seen more than is allowed and not, this is not safe because this has not been approved by the fda.

And they do notice a difference. And so I wonder if once those metabolic pathways that when you ingest it are saturated, and there was mention of this in an article, then more of it can get to the receptors. It needs to, and then it could have more of an effect. But at the 10 milligrams it's currently sold that we know it's safe to take.

It's not really effective.

Jam: And why try to take something that's not very effective at an amount and take a bunch of it, which is not recommended and not a good idea. When you could just take the recommended amount of pseudoephedrine

Melissa: Right. I'll tell you why. Because people don't know this, And that's what makes me so mad is I feel like this, this is [00:20:00] something that, it almost feels like a dupe to the public, that the medical professionals I talk to know this already. . Other scientists I've talked to have also noticed the difference and looked it up and are like, The other stuff doesn't work, just go buy Sudafed.

So I know people who know this, but the general public who doesn't have access to peer review journal articles, who hasn't been able to dig into why does this feel like this doesn't work or whatever, they, they're never gonna be able. To make that distinction. So they're like, Oh, I just have to take a bunch of this for it to work.

I'll do that. Instead of being like, Hey, this other thing has approved by the fda, I'm gonna go take it

Jam: Yeah, and also like just the fact that the average person going into a store sees what they see on the shelf that is available right there without having to go ask the pharmacist and get a show their id. You know?

Melissa: Yeah, that just seems so much easier, especially if you're sick, you don't feel good. You don't wanna go wait in line, you're just gonna [00:21:00] grab the thing That should work because it's sold as a decongestant that's approved by the fda, but it does not seem that it does. There are, there's no evidence that it does work.

But also that's part of why I really wanted to talk about this today, even though it's not as much of a traditional chemistry lesson, is because I'm like, Well, I wanna raise awareness about the fact that. Your money would be much better set spent on a pseudoephedrine, which has been approved by the FDA at these amounts than something else that's been approved by the FDA at these amounts.

That doesn't work. one works at these amounts, the other one doesn't work. So it's safe. I mean, it should be safe to take. It's just not helping anything

Jam: Right, Right.

Melissa: So I wanted to raise awareness about the issue. It's a scam.

Jam: Yeah, totally

Melissa: And I actually found some other people who also wanted to raise awareness about the issues.

So there was, I think it's three, three guys who have [00:22:00] PhDs and or doctorates. It's a group of them who have been trying to get the FDA to remove this from their approved list for years, and they've written articles, um, We've talked about peer reviewed journal articles, but we haven't ever talked about something else called a commentary where people can write in about things based in science but not research that they did.

Jam: Got it. Got it.

Melissa: And then you can also write letters to the editors in those articles or in those, uh, peer reviewed journals. So they've written commentaries, they've written letters to the editors, and they've submitted to the FDA this petition to get it removed in 2015. And nothing has happened yet,

Jam: Oh man. So is the thought that they don't have to do new research because the current research already. It's pretty evident that this doesn't work, so it's like we don't have to prove that this doesn't work because it's already been proven and we're just trying to get some [00:23:00] momentum.

Melissa: Well, there are lots of studies. So they originally did the petition in 2015 where they talked about, you know, there's no evidence in the amount that it's currently approved, that it is effective. You know, they listed all these studies and then in response to that petition, the FDA did say, I didn't get to see this.

Um, I went and found the letter they wrote, which was really fun. The petition that they sent in in 2015. Um, and then in one of their commentaries they said that the FDA responded to that indicating that there needed to be trials at different doses. So then from what I could tell, no more trials were done. But earlier this year, in March of 2022, those same three people submitted more information to the fda, sort of like supplementary information with all of the new studies that have come out in the last seven years supporting their argument.

So I can't tell if they, I. Look, I guess [00:24:00] specifically to see if they're the ones doing those studies. I know they, some of them were cited that weren't any of the three people who were, who were doing the studies. So it's not like they have a vested interest, but the commentaries and the letters to the editor is just almost like, Hey, let's take all of this information in summary and realize that this is stupid

Jam: Yeah. . Yeah.

Melissa: So this isn't our science study that we're publishing. We're publishing a letter that says, Look at all this evidence. It's dumb that we're doing this kind of

Jam: Right, right. That makes sense. So like you, that would be the function of commentary or letters to the editor would be like, Hey, here's the research that's already done. I've assembled, um, sources and I am want to ask you guys to act on this information, basically.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. . And there, there's an interesting one that we're probably gonna talk about soon, about learning styles that a chemist in the chemistry education research field did a similar thing where, Hey, here's all the evidence about learning styles. [00:25:00] Let's, let's look at this in the commentary form, because if you're not doing a study, then publishing it in.

It doesn't make sense to publish it in a peer reviewed article, which is for scientific research. It's more like, Hey, community, let's look at the evidence that we have. Have you noticed these, you know, 20 articles phenylephrine not working? You know, So it's more like that

Jam: Yeah. I mean noticed that the evidence is overwhelming.

Melissa: Yeah. Literally.

Jam: It's like, Come on, somebody else, please, other than us three, please

Melissa: And that's how I found it. It was in, uh, a commentary in the journal science, which is a kind of big deal, and it's almost just like these three guys out here fighting the good fight. And I did a lot of my research for this episode came from that, although I went and looked at so many other sources as.

But there these three guys who are just out here mad and [00:26:00] I, I love it because I feel like I could see myself taking up a cause like that, where I just go around being like, No, it doesn't work. . Yeah. All the evidence shows this, What are we doing? And it undermines, I think, the credibility of the FDA because they've approved it to be safe.

And I think that that's true. They are pretty good about taking things off that aren't safe, but they are not taking this off simply because it's not effective.

Jam: Right.

Melissa: And I think that's, If it's not safe, they, they pulled, there were three decongestants approved at the same time, and one of them was pulled because it's not safe.

And then the two of that stood were pseudoephedrine and phenylephrine. Spin phenylephrine really should probably be pulled as well, just so people aren't wasting their money on a decongestant that's ineffective at these amounts until they can prove that it's effective and safe at different amounts. But because it's not a danger, it seems like there's no fire under them to actually do anything about it.[00:27:00]

Jam: Yeah, that makes sense. It's like they would have to act quickly if it was like, Hey, we discovered people are dying every day because of this. They'd be like, Okay, we gotta do it. But they probably have the thought, even though it's annoying that they're probably like, We got bigger fish to fry.

But yeah, that's frustrating.

Melissa: it is frustrating. So I wanted to bring that to light and share with our listeners that if you don't feel good and you need to decongest it, read the ingredients on the back of the label. Depending on where you are now, it may be that where you are pseudoephedrine is the major thing.

Jam: Right. So you might be like, Uh, this is just normal

Melissa: Right. But , maybe I'm, I could go to, I don't know if there would be some like laws against this, but maybe I could go to our local store and be like picking up all the different ones. All these have phenylephrine. None of these are approved, or none of these have independent journal articles that show that they are gonna be effective

Yeah. So, So, [00:28:00] yeah. That's, that's the, uh, that's the dramatic failing, a government office scandalous, frustrating chemistry, drug related story of why I'm mad phenylephrine

Jam: man, it's just, it's just so frustrating that government like just wants us to stay congested, you know what I mean?

Melissa: know. I think it's probably not that. I think they just want us to feel like we're getting something and not buy Sudafed all the time they can suss out those suspicious people buying Sudafed,

Jam: Yeah. So they,

They'd care about suspicious people by Sudafed more than they care about the of us who

Melissa: seems like.

Jam: colds and allergies and all kinds of stuff, all kinds of reasons, and I don't know about that.

Melissa: Well, I don't know if you can teach me back the way you normally do.

Jam: Yes.

Melissa: Do you, do you wanna share what you, your main takeaways from this are? And then I have some, a fun fact [00:29:00] that you might not think is fun, but I think is fun as a chemistry teacher.

Jam: Okay. Yes, I can do that. So here's the gist, the story, the very, not ceremonious, my takeaways, the like, not cool, not narrative way. Mm-hmm. is that there are two main. Active ingredients and decongestants that we have available to us here in the US and probably everywhere, but the way it plays out is pretty unique to the us.

At least

Melissa: I think so.

Jam: one of them can be used. Pseudoephedrine can be used for some bad stuff. So they started limiting people's access to it by putting it behind the counter, requiring ID identifications in some states, that kind of thing. And at that same time, this lesser known, not super cool, not super effective. Um, kind of other decongestion that was just kind of chilling, not that popular for a long time.

Naturally it just became more and more popular. Mm-hmm. , it got approved because of some not super [00:30:00] solid, but not like completely faked or whatever. Mm-hmm. evidence. Um, and then now, several decades later, it is the mainest decongestant that most of us.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jam: And it is not that effective. And the really good one that works very well is just a few steps away behind the counter being neglected, that's just sitting there, ready to be put in, sitting on the bench, ready to get in there and ready to do the job very well.

Um, is that right?

Melissa: that's right. I think that's a good summary.

Jam: And my takeaway, I mean we've both talked about this, but like I have bad allergies a lot. I've always had my whole life, and I probably already was buying the correct thing because my wife knows about this stuff and she tells me

Melissa: Oh yeah. I did text her when I found this out angrily and said, Did you know about this? I can't believe this. And she [00:31:00] said, Yeah, I never ever recommend patients take this

Jam: So I just buy what she tells me to anyway. But if I didn't already do that and didn't already have something smarter than me making those decisions for me, my takeaway would be I am going to always go to the counter and ask for Sudafed. And just, that's my, That's the life change I would make today. Based on this information. Because it's an easy one to make. , it's like,

Melissa: I think also Advil, cold and sinus is that there are other products that are not specifically Sudafed that do also have Sudafed in them. So, and maybe some of those are out, but I think for the most part, they're behind the counter.

Jam: Right. So takeaway is also to look at the list of ingredients.

Melissa: Look at the list of ingredients because you'll find interesting things if you start to compare. Don't, Don't get your phenylephrine. Get your pseudoephedrine, and. Don't. If you want a sleeping medication, technically [00:32:00] Z-quil and Benadryl are the same thing. Z equals a syrup with sugar in it and Benadryls just a pill.

So , there's lots of things you can learn. I was blown away by that one too. always get mad or I'm like, how? How is this being sold to something else? And even on Benadryl, it's like, don't take this as a sleep aid and then Zquil like take this as a sleep aide.

Aid.

It's, it's like, it's like they're just trickiness.

Jam: Yeah. Also, kind of in the, like, you know, as an analogy, if we took this as an analogy, um, this whole situation, if you're one of those Sudafed folks, Just kind of not being noticed, but you're great at what you do. Just wanna encourage you, get in there. You know, Don't let the phenylephrine, what is it called again?

Phen. Yeah, phenylephrines of the world. Like just do a bad job. Yeah. And just get, be out there and you know what I'm saying? So,

Melissa: And thanks to those people out there fighting the good fight who see the Sudafed. Yeah. [00:33:00] See the sudafeds of the world

Jam: So don't give up, Sudafeds.

Melissa: Don't give up. Also, if you do have access to, um, to the article or the journal science, um, we have this linked in our, in our show notes, but the my absolute favorite resource that I used for this episode I believe it's a Commentary. Yeah, Commentary in science. And, um, it says The Uselessness of phenylephrine, and it was publish.

This March, March of 2022 and it's, yeah, I really, really appreciate it. I think it's a really good article

Jam: Nice.

Melissa: and so it makes me laugh and it does reference another paper that was, um, published, I think by the same authors that says, , Why is Oral phenylephrine on the market after compelling evidence of ineffectiveness as a decongestant?

literally the title of the peer review article. So I appreciate these guys for fighting the good fight [00:34:00] and really working to keep credibility in the FDA and to keep consumers from spending money on something that's not

Jam: Right, right.

Melissa: So that's fun. That was a fun article. I had a lot of fun writing this episode because I was so mad. I actually needed some time to let it chill, chill out for me.

and I was working on this because I was like, Oh, I'm so mad about this. I just want everyone to know. And I, I think I've spoiled it a little cuz I've told anyone close to me immediately I was like, Do not.

Waste your money . So a lot of people closer to me have probably already heard about this, but um, I really had a great time. So speaking of fun things, Jams or anything fun? Oh, I didn't share my fun fact with

Jam: Oh yeah. What's the fun thing?

Melissa: Okay. My fun fact is that there, we talked about left and right-handed mar molecules before, and pseudoephedrine does have that quality of being lefthanded and right-handed, but it has two hands , [00:35:00] and each hand could be left or right handed.

Jam: interesting. Two

little things. Uhhuh.

Melissa: and so it, there's like, um, there's a left, left and a right, right. And those left and right, both function as pseudoephedrine but there's another one that's left, right, and right left. And that's actually just ephedrine, which is why the other one's called pseudoephedrine. And I think ephedrine already is in our body, I think.

I don't know the functions of it. But I thought that was fun that the left and right handed molecules, you know, came back to us again.

Jam: it's been a while since we've talked about that.

That deal. I've kind of had forgotten about that.

Melissa: And for my organic chemistry students, you know these words, but it's, there's the enantiomers, Ss and Rs, and then the diastereomers of that Sr and Rs, that's ephedrine. So there's some, [00:36:00] some, a little nugget there for my organic chemistry people.

Jam: Nice.

Melissa: So, okay. So that was my fun fact. So now let's hear about your fun week. What's, what's been going on with you?

Jam: So this wasn't exactly this past week, but very recently, and I hadn't really told you were the listeners about it, but both my older brother and then a friend of ours were both in plays, different plays, different towns, same two weekends.

So one of the weekends I went and saw my wife and I went and saw my brother in a play and he was like one of the absolute like lead people came on the stage.

Melissa: Wow.

Jam: About two minutes into the play and then never left. Like

Melissa: Oh my gosh.

Jam: The whole time

Melissa: I wish I'd been able to see that. That's so cool. I know your brother. He I, he's awesome. So that'd be so.

Jam: So if you're a theater person, he played, uh, it was, it was, the play was, it's only a play, it's the name of it, which is kinda confusing.

Melissa: That is confusing.

Jam: He played James Wicker, so [00:37:00] Superman character and he did a great job

Melissa: Wow, that's so fun.

Jam: it was a very funny play. And then the next weekend went and saw our friend Justin in a play.

And that play was Death of a Salesman.

Melissa: It's also another famous

Jam: Very famous. Um, not very funny. It's a little funny. It was a couple funny, but mostly the tragedy.

Melissa: It's like one offs kind of.

Jam: and dark humor and stuff. Tragedy, so definitely cool that those were such different

Melissa: so different. Yeah.

Jam: And I'd never read or seen Death of Salesman, so it was all new to me, even though know a lot of people have, you know, read it or seen there or

Melissa: I've only read excerpts of it, Like in school, you know?

Jam: Yeah. So I saw those two plays back to back. I'm not like a huge theater person, both those were so good and it was really cool. And also just kind of funny cuz I don't, I can't remember last time I saw a play. then,

Melissa: was

Jam: Right. I mean, a lot of Covid related for that too.

But also having kids means that happens less too. So seeing two plays, two weekends in a row was really [00:38:00] fun. And they're both so good that it was like, this is cool. This is kind of weird.

Melissa: Yeah, I don't think I've seen a place since before Covid. So to get two back to back

Jam: Yeah, but it was super good. So shout out to Abilene, the Abilene theater scene where my brother's part of. Shout out to the Denton Theater scene here, where we've got people that, that are involved in that too. So

Melissa: Very cool. Well

Jam: done. Both of you guys

Melissa: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, mine's not quite as cool, but it's kind of cool. It doesn't revolve around plays, but it revolves around playing

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: We went to Six Flags with Maison's family this weekend, and I don't go to Six Flags. Really? I've lived here. So I guess for context for people not in the Texas area, I guess there's other ones around the country, there's a big theme park, um, like with roller coasters and things like that.

Here locally in like the DFW area, it's [00:39:00] actually very close to where I grew up and was born and it's called Six Flags Over Texas. And um, there, I think there's like offshoots of like other ones now around other parts of the country. But that was the original. I'm pretty.

Jam: Yeah, I think so.

Melissa: And so, um, I went there a lot as a kid, like our daycare would take us there, which so weird, but that's like context for how close it is, is the kids of the daycare had a season pass.

It would go regularly that, which now is a grown up. Imagining taking a daycare is really overwhelming, but summer, so I think they just needed stuff for us to do. And then, um, our family would get season passes some, and I remember them being very expensive back then. But actually when we got, um, our tickets this time, the season pass was only a little bit more and it was close to the same amount that it used to be.

So we actually, with his family, got season passes to go and, um, it was really, really fun. I'm so surprised because I haven't. Thought about or wanted to go to six flags [00:40:00] since I was a kid because I went so much back then, you know? And even when I was like, probably in high school, me and my best friend Caitlin would get season passes and just, I feel like I don't even remember us riding the rides.

We would like go there and eat curly fries and just like walk around . Yeah. And so just thinking about like, Oh yeah, I haven't been there a long time, huh? I wonder what it's gonna be like. And it was really fun. And it was really close. The parking is free, like with the season pass, all these things. So, um, I was like, this is gonna be a good way to fill up our time when, you know, if we just have a little day here or there.

And then I thought we could get one for,

Jam: Ah,

Melissa: so that, I think we're gonna do that this upcoming weekend. So then we'll be able to take him on adventures too. And he's four, so it'll be a totally different experience. You know, Maison's family was like, let's ride all the big roller coaster rides,

Jam: right. Which,

Melissa: Listen, that will remind you how old you are because I could use to ride those rides no problem.

We'd just like run through the line over and over one and done now[00:41:00]

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: But yeah, it was really fun. So similar to your like, oh, I don't even remember the last time I went to a like, I don't even remember the last time I went to Six Flags. I guess we're doing this and it was a great time.

Jam: Dude, that is so fun. That's cool.

Melissa: And just being with his family, I really love his family and yeah, they um, they come and hang out with us pretty regularly and so we get to like, see the whole crew and, yeah. It was just a really fun weekend. It was, it was, um, exhausting to go to six flags and walk around all day, but it was that good feeling, you know, when you get in bed at the end of the day, you're like, Oh, this was so great.

What a great time. You know,

Jam: that's great, man. Very cool.

Melissa: yeah. We, we are doing, we're out doing things.

Yeah.

Jam: Out in the world. Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Wow. Thanks to Mason's family who encouraged us to go to Six Flags, cuz otherwise I would not have.

And thanks to you today, Jam to for listening to me rant yet again about phenylephrine, although I do think you learned a lot more this time than the first time heard about it and to all of our listeners, into those three guys fighting the good.

Jam: [00:42:00] Yes.

Melissa: teaching us all, including me about how frustrating it is that phenylephrine is still on the market as a congest decongestant.

Jam: Yeah. Well, thank you for teaching us. Thank you for sharing this knowledge that very much applies to everyday life. If you have an idea or question or thought that you wanna share with us about something you think might be chemistry, who can out to us on Gmail? Twitter, Instagram or Facebook at Chem for your Life, that's Chem f-o-r your life to share your thoughts and idea.

If you like to help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it, go to patreon.com/chem for your life. That's Chem for your life, or tap the link in our show notes to join our patron support team. If you're not able to join that, you can still help us by subscribing on your favorite podcast app and rating and writing a review on Apple Podcast. That also helps us to share chemistry with even more.

Melissa: This episode of Chemistry for Your Life was created by Melissa Collini and Jam Robinson.

This episode was made possible by our financial supporters over on Patreon. We're [00:43:00] gonna shout them out every week because we're so thankful for everything you do to help us keep this show going. Those supporters are Timothy P Bri, m Chris and Claire, S Hunter, R Steven, B have Avishai B, Chelsea B and Christina G.

Thanks again so much for your support and for making chemistry for your life possible. We'd also like to give a special thanks to A Kheawsang and v Garza who reviewed this episode. And if you'd like to learn more, check out the references for this episode, and our show notes are on our website.