183 PFAS 5
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Melissa: [00:00:00] Okay, Jam, this week we're doing a special edition. Dun dun! That was my Special edition. noise. We're doing an

Melissa: update to, uh,

Melissa: PFAS.

Jam: uh,

Melissa: running and most listened to series of all time is getting an addendum, an appendix, an additional update. I

Jam: this is part what now? What numbers be?

Melissa: maybe six.

Jam: dude, PFAS five.

Melissa: PFAS five. Fast

Jam: I'm pretty sure the fast and the furious movies when it got to the fifth one, they called it Fast five.

Jam: So it's like a PFAS five, the

Melissa: Okay, so

Jam: fast and we are furious.

Melissa: That is true. So we're going to talk about the FDA has announced that there will be PFAS no longer used in, greaseproofing or waterproofing paper that comes into contact with food. And that sounds like good news. But then [00:01:00] if you dig a little deeper, there are definitely some questions that we're going to talk about today.

Melissa: So let's get into it.

Melissa: Okay, fast five! And we're furious. Hey, I'm Melissa,

Jam: I'm Jim and I'm not

Melissa: and welcome to Chemistry for Your Life.

Jam: The podcast steps you understand the chemistry of your everyday life at night.

Melissa: your food rapper, the chemistry of your food rapper.

Jam: So if you haven't seen some of our more recent episodes, we record at night now and we won't make this like, what would you call it? Uh, re lude? Uh,

Melissa: uh, every time intro,

Jam: Yeah, but just it's helpful for a few times, maybe if you notice a more tiredness a [00:02:00] a Sluggishness a as we get used to it. We may seem a little different Mm hmm, but we will get used to it. And so will you guys but we uh, it's helpful to know that that's what's changed

Melissa: I just yawned like it was on cue.

Jam: Yeah, we, we are, however, not, we are not less excited about talking about chemistry.

Jam: We're talking about it at a different time of day, so you can understand, hopefully, that it changes things a little bit.

Melissa: does change things a little bit. Okay, so for also for today before we dig into it Do you want to do a quick overview? We haven't done this in a while of like who we are and what we're about

Jam: would love to. Why don't we start with me telling people about who you are?

Melissa: Okay, let's do that

Jam: So Melissa just moments ago, she said she's a chemist and she was telling you the truth In fact, she's a three time chemist

Melissa: time award It's

Jam: got her PhD in chemistry and uh, So when she talks about chemistry, she's here.

Jam: She does a lot of [00:03:00] research on each topic teaches it to me. I'm not a chemist I'm learning for the first time along with you and me. then I'm trying to learn it and retain it and Say it back to Melissa And that's what we're doing here.

Melissa: that's dr. Kim is to you I'm just kidding. Okay. Um,

Jam: That's Dr. Chemistry for your life, to you.

Melissa: So, it's Dr. Chimistry, So, yes, that's me. I'm a chemist. And Jam is not a chemist, and that makes this really fun. But the other thing that Jam has going for him, besides not being a chemist, is he is really good at sound. And so he is the reason for the crystal clear.

Melissa: noise brought to your ears today. So thanks for that, Jim.

Jam: that's what I studied, and it happened, it all worked out. That I knew how to do that, and Melissa wanted to start a podcast. And so, we were

Melissa: And you want to learn science.

Melissa: So that's what we, that's who we are, and our goal is to make chemistry, just like we said, accessible and more easy to understand [00:04:00] and interesting to everyone. So, You're welcome here whether you're a chemist or not a chemist or just somebody trying to exercise and learn something while they're hanging out.

Jam: And we have folks of all, all across that spectrum that listen. So like, there are people who are chemists, people who are teaching chemistry, who listen. They are there are also people who assign it, who teach chemistry and they assign it to their students listen to it. and there are people there like me that just are interested in science.

Jam: They don't work in it. They are not currently like a student anywhere. They just are interested in chemistry. And so all people welcome.

Melissa: Everyone's welcome. And hopefully I have people who thought that they wouldn't like chemistry and then they listen and they do which is what happened to me with 99 percent invisible. I was like, design? Boring. Then I started listening.

Jam: And if you thought you didn't like chemistry and then you listen to our podcast and you were like, actually, I guess I kind of like it, you played right into Melissa's hands because that's been her theory all along.

Melissa: my hope and my dream.

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: so [00:05:00] now let's get into it. Oh wait, one more thing. Sorry, there's lots of housekeeping kind of at the front of this. This episode is dedicated to our new Patreon supporter, John T.

Melissa: Hey John, welcome. Thank you so much for joining our super cool community of Patrons.

Jam: hmm.

Melissa: We're so glad to have you.

Jam: and patrons like John T. uh, In our chem immunity, they help keep the show going. They cover the costs of making it and we're a small little independent podcast And so those folks who help support the show um, They make it free for everybody else. And so we're grateful for you John and our whole chemunity, This episode is dedicated to you

Melissa: All right, now let's, uh, in honor of John, let's talk about something depressing. Just kidding. It's actually pretty exciting. And, um, our listener, Brian M sent me an article. So thanks Brian, for this talking about PFAS. So, um, [00:06:00] He sent me an article which was an update from the FDA that PFAS are no longer going to be used in grease proofing paper. But like I said, I dug a little deeper and it made me ask some questions. So I'm gonna talk about why the FDA decided this and then also what I think and what questions that this makes me ask right away and maybe what questions you have too.

Jam: Okay

Melissa: So yay this is exciting. If you haven't listened to our four part already, or at least four part, uh, series on PFAS, that's, uh, quick overview is that's perfluorinated or polyfluorinated, um, alkylated substances, or alkyl substances.

Melissa: So all that means is normally we have hydrocarbons, you've probably heard that before, which are molecules made up mostly of carbon with hydrogens. bonded to them. Um, however, sometimes chemists figured out that if you replace the hydrogens with fluorines, you [00:07:00] can make other convenient things that are very unlikely to let other things stick to them.

Melissa: So, think Teflon pans, it's just a carbon chain with a bunch of fluorines around it. And those are used in all kinds of things, including paper, to like, or like raincoats, using them in, um, Period products, like menstrual underwear, they're used in, um,

Jam: which is about like

Melissa: microwave popcorn

Jam: mm hmm and like pool plumber plumbers use it for like certain like it's like a Liquid gel version that they can put when they're joining things together or

Melissa: it's like everywhere. And so, um, That's kind of a brief overview of them, but what we found more recently is they're actually probably not super safe, and so now we have a lot of contamination in our water and possibly in the food that we're eating, and that's not great.

Jam: Mm

Melissa: So we talked [00:08:00] about how, um, a good way that we can make a change, because it's nearly impossible to really avoid them, Just with lifestyle change, and it, we're disproportionately able to do that the more resources that we have, so that really negatively impacts people with less resources more, which

Jam: Mm

Melissa: And so we want to do what we can to make change, and the best way to do that is to hopefully vote and put people in office that can make this And so something that's worked well and that's gone right is the FDA is starting to hold people accountable for some of

Jam: hmm

Melissa: So in the early 2020s, some evidence came out that one type of PFAS in particular is going to be a more potential harm to people.

Melissa: So let's talk about what that is and why. There are four categories where food might interact with PFAS.

Jam: Cat?

Melissa: One is non stick coating [00:09:00] on pots and pans, which we've talked about before. We've tried to eliminate that as much as possible from our homes.

Jam: Mm hmm. Mm. Mm.

Melissa: on gaskets and, um, things that sort of like are used in the manufacturer.

Melissa: So there'll be incidental contact. So, um, I don't know where I just sort of lost my place. Um, then there's PFAS that. are used to help manufacture other PFAS. And then the very last category is the degrease proof or waterproof food wrappers.

Melissa: And that's the one that seemed like there was some evidence that it was more of a threat.

Melissa: So let's talk about why that one seems like it has more of a threat than some others.

Jam: Yeah,

Melissa: In our other PFAS application, We've talked about how they are polymers. What are polymers, Jam?

Jam: they are a large molecule [00:10:00] made up of small equals a Chain of repeating

Jam: things that make a really strong most time very strong Coating or substance or whatever and they're everywhere and we've talked about them It seems like almost like half of our episodes or something have polymers included in them

Melissa: Yeah, so typically the PFAS is the repeating unit. My favorite analogy is like if you have a pearl necklace, you have a pearl that repeats over and over, and the pearls as a collective that are stuck together in a long string make a pearl

Melissa: necklace, right? So typically the PFAS are the pearls. So they would be making up the pearl necklace.

Melissa: Now, of that, they're relatively hard to break off.

Jam: right

Melissa: Um, you'll break up the polymer maybe like if you chip off a Teflon coating, but you're not going to get individual small molecules of PFAS. And also, when they're applied in coating, they're done so in really high [00:11:00] temperatures, so that means that if there are any small molecules of PFAS left over, those will usually be eliminated.

Jam: Okay.

Melissa: Okay, but, the PFAS that's used on paper to greaseproof

Jam: Mm hmm,

Melissa: is a little different. The repeating units is not a pearl, let's say. It's just a plain old chain, like a regular necklace, just a hydrocarbon or some other kind of polymer and they add little PFAS as what they call side chains.

Melissa: So imagine like a chain necklace with pearls dangling down from it.

Melissa: So there are pearls on the necklace, but they're not making up the bulk of the necklace. And so you could imagine if you had pearls hanging down on little side chains, literally, you have a chain necklace, little chains hanging down with pearls on them, it would be relatively easy for one of those pearls to get snagged and yanked off,

Melissa: [00:12:00] right? Well, similarly, these PFAS are on the sides of these carbon chains, so imagine like, oh, every once in a while we have those, and they're added a later part of the process, they're not actually polymerized, they're not part of the polymer itself, is a good way to think about that. And so they're more likely to be able to sort of, uh, when they're exposed to heat, like when they're added to them or whatever, those bonds could more easily be broken and contaminate our food that we're going to ingest, and those coatings are usually applied, those kinds are applied usually at lower temperatures, so all of the contaminants that were there to begin with that would be maybe like broken off with heat and been able to be eliminated in something like a pan, there's going to be more of those small molecules that are going to be more easily transferred.

Melissa: over into our food.

Jam: Got it. Dang.

Melissa: So, that's your [00:13:00] chemistry lesson for today. It's just a different type of PFAS. And so the FDA was like, uh oh, not good, we're getting rid of these. So they made, um, anyone who was still using them, promise to eliminate them by a certain time, and as of the very last day of February, I think, it's officially happened.

Jam: wow,

Jam: wait. That means, okay, so the, the date that had to be done was the last day of February or something like

Jam: that?

Jam: I

Melissa: think so, yeah.

Jam: Cool. Okay.

Melissa: So the FDA has now received word that There is no PFAS being used

Jam: Mm-Hmm.

Melissa: in any food receptacle like that.

Jam: Got it. Okay.

Melissa: That's exciting, right? And they're all, what's the very first thing that you think?

Jam: I mean, what are they using instead?

Melissa: what are they using instead? So there are some really great alternatives like, um, silicones, waxes, um, things like that, [00:14:00] but The exact same problem that we talked about with BPA, where they just used bisphenol A, they switched to BPA, they switched to bisphenol S, BPS.

Melissa: And now they're like, Oh wait, this might do the same thing. We don't know what they're using instead.

Jam: Right.

Melissa: And so, For most of the alternatives, there are really good ones, and those companies are being transparent about that. But most of the companies are citing like, you know, it's so competitive to make non PFAS greaseproof paper that we can't just be sharing what we're doing.

Melissa: And so, my initial thought is, yay, I'm so glad that these have been eliminated. And I'm very concerned about what they're using.

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: And so I think that brings us to the next thing that is really important, I think, in keeping us safe from the [00:15:00] chemicals that we come into contact with every day, some of which are perfectly fine, and some of which are perfectly questionable.

Melissa: is transparent. And we've talked about this before about how we think that household chemicals should have to have an ingredients list similar to what we have on our food, And but unless there's support for that in the public, it's not going to get done. So I think another thing that we really need to push for is transparency in the codings that go on things touch our And transparency in general in The types of chemicals that people are using for things that are going to go into our homes, like we don't know what, for example, um, paper plates that have that like sort of glossy, waxy coating, we don't know what that is, and we sell it at the store, and we could take it in our home, and that's concerning to me, I think there needs to be more transparency, and more independent tests to [00:16:00] determine the safety of things, and so,

Jam: it's weird because there are some things obviously for a long time we've had to list the ingredients of it like, I think if it's a household cleaning spray or something like that, any of those things, if it's like in a liquid, it's a bottle, they have to list what's in there,

Melissa: they have to list the active ingredients, but that can be a really small

Melissa: portion.

Jam: okay. There you go.

Melissa: And that makes it where they do, there'll be like greenwashing where it's like, oh, this is a cleaner alternative of something, but it really isn't.

Jam: Yep.

Melissa: like they change one little thing.

Jam: Yep. Right.

Melissa: so there's a lot of things that we don't have good transparency and things that I've been like, what is this?

Melissa: And gone to look and couldn't find it.

Jam: think about it. It's almost like they have something to hide. I'm not saying they do. I'm just saying it would be the kind of thing you would do if you didn't want people to know what was in your thing.

Melissa: Yeah,[00:17:00]

Jam: And if you didn't mind, then it seems kind of like you would be fine telling people what's in it because it's all good and there's nothing harmful in there.

Jam: So just saying.

Jam: Oh,

Melissa: It feels kind of bleak,

Melissa: because it's like, who's making this? What are they doing? They're hiding behind these industry secrets. It's so competitive, whatever. But I don't think we need to be discouraged, because the FDA is doing what we want it to. This is the second thing now, they've also come back on, um, diphenhydramine.

Melissa: No, not diphenhydramine. That's Benadryl. What's the one that's

Jam: yep. Yep. I know

Jam: you're

Melissa: not pseudolephedrine, but the other one. That doesn't work. But,

Jam: They're doing

Melissa: they, they're doing things that we want them to do. So the thing that we can do is, That's a big win for the FDA, I think. So the thing that we can do is continue to put people in office who are going to support [00:18:00] the FDA and scientific research to really try to make positive changes and to hold industry to a higher standard and keep us safe as a whole people, because individually we can do things where we decide we're not going to.

Melissa: use This in our house, but that's to some extent it's if unavoidable if it's getting in our water supply. And again, that's really only an option for those of us who have more resources. So I wanted to talk about this and say, yay, I am very excited about that.

Jam: just

Melissa: I'm excited for this space. It's making for people who are really trying to innovate well,

Jam: like, okay, if scientists, you know,

Melissa: Things that we know are bio inactive, so like silicones are safer, who are trying to make more one time, or less one time use options, but leave me with a question.

Melissa: So I just wanted to talk about that. [00:19:00] Another PFAS episode. I don't have good answers, I feel like we're back into the gray,

Melissa: but that's something I wanted to touch on.

Jam: are testing these things once they're out in the world. And they are able to say, listen, here's what we found. Here's what this looks like. Here's the things that we've consistently found that these seem like they break off and could be getting in the food and blah, blah, blah.

Jam: And if it's like we have in the past banned certain ones and we've gotten a good habit of that, then maybe it's the kind of thing we're like, okay, right. We believe you. We'll do it again. You know, and maybe we get good at that because if we do a few times, maybe corporations get the picture where it's like, okay, I'm not going to switch to another PFAS.

Jam: I'm going to go with one of these better, options. that's not PFAS and, and makes me not have to switch again, you know?

Jam: um,

Melissa: I totally

Jam: Because that would, they would have an incentive at that point to just not [00:20:00] keep on switching and obviously money is their incentive. And so they don't have to do it, they don't have to switch something.

Jam: They won't. Um, so anyway,

Melissa: Yeah.

Jam: here's a, a very small local to us, uh, win on the, on team. No PFAS. So after our series

Melissa: Mm hmm.

Jam: or, you know, the, after the series, we sort of paused it knowing that it was, the story was not over, but we paused it for a bit. I was, uh, explaining, kind of giving some cliff notes of it a little bit to our friend Grant.

Jam: And he had been given by somebody else, so in some ways not his fault, a Teflon pan that he was using. And classic thing, he was like, I'll use it mostly for eggs kind of stuff, you know. Um, and I was like, well, I mean, yeah, obviously it's given to you, so whatever, but I was like, here's just the stuff we talked about and, and here's things that could, you know, you can't limit it from everything, but it'd be [00:21:00] nice to eliminate it from the, you can choose to not have.

Jam: And so the, the pan got some scratches on it, but just literally last week, I think it was, he, um, was like, okay, time to replace this. When he went, he did the thing that we talked about. He went to the store to see what he could get that was not Teflon. And guess what? He did find a, just on a typical store, I think it was Target or Walmart, somewhere like that, got a fairly normal accessible household brand, carbon steel pan

Melissa: Yay!

Jam: ready to be able to be grabbed by almost anybody.

Melissa: Because we talked about that, that they said you're going to be, not we're trying to do as little non stick alternatives as possible, right? Yep. So, it's, it feels almost like, um,

Jam: Mhm. Mhm.

Melissa: it feels like the Whack A Mole game

Melissa: or something,

Melissa: but it's like, we're like trying to make it to where like, [00:22:00] eventually there's no more little holes you can slip through anymore.

Melissa: Like, we can't. Just change your ethics here who did not make them but we can just keep legislating to make it So annoying and slippery that you might as well just do the right thing

Jam: Yep. and if we're like, obviously we're just a little podcast, but if we're talking about it here and people who listen and who are interested in this topic are changing what Um, the things we can't control and they're talking about to their friends and stuff like that and there are easy to get Alternatives that does probably make a percentage difference on some Teflon company's books somewhere, right?

Jam: Like huh, we haven't been selling much of this at this that store those stores anymore. It Looks like this other thing is growing though. And then boom, before you know it, it's like they are making changes because money, not because, money. you know, not

Melissa: I guess that's something we also don't talk about is when you can vote with your [00:23:00] money voting with your money we talked about that like The really on our individual small scale one person's not going to make a huge change But if lots of people money money is going to the same thing Then, thing that we can really make change on is oh, we're affecting the bottom line.

Jam: and who knows if we really thought about between you and I and the people we've interacted with, how many, Teflon pans have we prevented from being bought in our circles who knows but it's like it might be significant enough, you know

Melissa: And also because Teflon pans, you kind of have to keep buying them. Like how many would people have bought in their lifetimes? It's true. Okay. Thank

Jam: Mhm.

Melissa: So vote with your dollars and I definitely think we need to keep things in place that will keep corporations being held to a higher standard. Keep laws in place for transparency and for safety.

Jam: Mhm. [00:24:00] Mhm.

Melissa: So yeah, it is like, this is a small win from the FDA, but then we have to be careful about what's coming next, I think. And so not only can we say, no PFAS, but also tell us what's in your stuff. That's my next thing that I want to know. I'm like. Okay, but what is it?

Jam: Mhm.

Melissa: So that's my thought. Oh, yeah,

Jam: Dang

Melissa: we can if you want talk a little bit about the molecule But I feel like that was kind of more of a side and instead I just kind of wanted to give the update

Jam: yeah, okay.

Melissa: Well, thanks for sharing your win with gray

Jam: Yes. I was thinking as we were talking about it, I was like, I'll save this for the end I almost said at the beginning. I was like I might need a little a little

Jam: win, you know

Melissa: Well, that is a little pick me up. And also do you want to share other happy things?

Jam: I would love to are you guys ready? So I think we talked about did we talk about morning routine stuff last time? Or was that in

Jam: a community? Yeah. [00:25:00] Okay, there's a little plug for our chem Immunity exclusive secret podcast for people who are part of our community. patreon community, It's

Melissa: john t is now

Jam: Mm hmm. Where we talk about non chemistry things and hang out as friends and talk about stuff in our lives. Um, talk a little bit about the changes to my morning routine.

Jam: One of those things, just, you know, giving you a little bit of it, um, is that I started getting back into running and I've been having problems and, you know, could be that I'm getting older. It could be that I took a very long break from running and I'm trying to get back into it. My body's confused.

Melissa: both?

Jam: They're both? I'm having specifically midfoot problems, um, which

Jam: I, yes, or lack thereof, because I don't have one, um, or don't, don't really have one, uh, because my feet are flat as skis and they always have been. But I, so I was looking into that and I was like, [00:26:00] this is weird, I didn't, it wasn't just like the first week kind of thing, you know, it was like, I can see how it has this persistent problem. Um, and, um, I was looking into some stuff and I am testing. Okay, we're we're all scientists in a way

Melissa: a little scientist inside all of

Jam: we all have one inside of us exactly and we should approach things scientifically Wherever possible, right?

Jam: I am testing using zero drop very thin sold shoes But I was called barefoot shoes, which is confusing because they are so shoes and so your feet are not bare but Anyway, for people who, it could for all those people can be helpful, but what I found that was recommended for me to at least try it was that for people who have flat feet, Even your feet are still gonna be flat, but sometimes what can happen is just the muscles in your feet are, [00:27:00] need to be strengthened.

Jam: And, If I have been getting certain shoes that feel better for my flat feet, it is possible that I'm kind of keeping my feet weaker in the, in the areas where,

Melissa: You're like supporting it so the muscle's not working.

Jam: yeah, something like that. this is where I'm like, all right, I'm not going to just try to become an expert in it. I'm like, I'm going to try something.

Melissa: like a crutch instead of strengthening the muscle maybe? Like you're, you're relying on the crutch instead of healing the broken foot or whatever.

Jam: Exactly. Yes. Very good. example. Um, and one of the things people say is even if it's, you know, like still going to be a process, but like one of the things that people who have switched to very thin soled shoes for running have found is that it just forces them to change their foot strike while they're running.

Melissa: Yeah, my brother was running like half marathons barefoot for a while.

Melissa: [00:28:00] Yeah,

Jam: that obviously, but um, Let's jump. I don't need, I don't feel like I need to, but I do need something to change. So like I'm doing these shoes. It's supposed to help you naturally adjust your foot strike and also strengthen your feet at the same time. But it's kind of hard when you have been running before and you're used to certain things to just like change how you run, you know, like if it's the way I'm running, the way my foot strike in the ground.

Jam: It's sort of causing the problems like I don't know how to like change it, you know, so anyway trying that it's been interesting I'm wearing those shoes right now Um, and If any of you who are listeners have experience with this stuff and this topic or just interested I suggest, I'll tell you more, but I will not go too deep into the nerdiness or talk about brands and advertise them, uh, cause they're not sponsors of the show,

Melissa: support that. No, not a sponsor. Okay, well, I have something [00:29:00] similar, um, Well, not really, I guess similar, but, Um, similar to what we were talking about in the episode, Of like voting with your money, where you can. And listen, I know this is not possible for everyone, but I learned about eggs and I knew this before, but I like, there's a picture, did I already talk about this?

Jam: don't think so.

Melissa: There's a picture that was crazy to me and it's about, it's about, um, chickens, okay? And, um, like, farm raised versus cage free

Jam: huh. Uh

Melissa: range. Okay. So, it was like, this this picture that's like a circle, and it's like, you know, cut into sixths. Okay, So like, imagine a pie cut into sixths, and inside the pie, there's a very small circle, and there's like, this. Tiny tiny compared to the slice of pie that you have and they're like this is the circle of what caged [00:30:00] Regular eggs that aren't labeled as anything are and it was like very small and then barely bigger than that like not even double is cage free eggs. And then a little bit bigger than that, like maybe double from the cage free eggs, is free range eggs. And the first two levels of eggs, the chickens never see outside.

Jam: hmm. Mm hmm.

Melissa: And then in free range eggs, the chickens see a little bit outside. And then there's pasture raised, which gets the whole piece of pie, and the pie regularly rotates around the circle, so that these pasture raised eggs, or pasture raised chickens are always getting They're always getting to see light and they're getting to range in different pastures and they get this whole piece of pie to themselves to go outside and my friend who used to raise chickens told me about that and I was like That's so interesting and it and she showed me this picture and it made me like have such an impact on me because I thought Like [00:31:00] how much happier and better my body is when I'm not under stress Same thing is probably true for these chickens and so these eggs are probably just like higher quality better for my body so I tried it and um, They're like a totally different color.

Jam: Huh.

Melissa: It's kind of crazy. They're like this beautiful amber yolk instead of like a pale one it's wild and they are tastier and um, So anyway, I've been into pasture raised eggs lately

Jam: Nice.

Melissa: and they make my avocado toast that I have for breakfast really good So that's one thing

Jam: But if you're like, these are like a totally different color, like the green eggs and I have them with my ham.

Melissa: have these like, these like blue shells,

Jam: Oh yeah.

Melissa: me of Robins. But

Jam: Yeah.

Jam: Yeah.

Jam: Mm

Melissa: anyway, so there's that. So that's one thing where I've been trying to vote with my dollar. And then another thing where I've been trying to vote with my dollar is we've been, we're getting ready to go on a big, long camping [00:32:00] trip this summer.

Melissa: And we are trying to get our camping set up

Melissa: already. And we have an old camping stove and we needed some kind of like brittle to go on top of it

Jam: Uh huh.

Melissa: and there was one that was really cheap and i was like oh this looks good and it was nonstick and i was like no

Jam: Mm hmm.

Melissa: we got a cast iron one instead but the fun thing about that is um i got it all with credit card points and so we we like every other year we do a big trip and that we're like willing to spend more money on and then the alternate years we like try to do something small well this year our big trip is a camping trip but we're doing it all in our car so we don't have to pay for hotels We're using our credit card points to get a bunch of gift cards, so we've gotten a bunch of stuff in gift cards, and what's great about that is then we have it, and so then we can still just go camping.

Melissa: It's stuff that we've tried to do, like, uh, buy it once and let it last for a really long time. Things like our cast iron griddle, we'll be able to use that for [00:33:00] camping, you know, forever, and so, that's been fun, and gets us ready to take lots of little weekend trips whenever we

Melissa: want. Nice.

Melissa: So, You're welcome. let us know if you guys want to go camping. Listeners and Jam Co. That would be so fun.

Jam: Yes, some, someday it will seem not impossible to do that

Melissa: with kids, I feel like that's hard.

Jam: but at some point it'll be super fun and it'll be cool to take kids. Doing stuff like that, you know

Melissa: We have talked about that. Like, oh, do we What would we do if we have kids? And I was like, I don't know, but I really don't want to get pregnant on an accident like before this big, long two week trip that we've been planning for a year. So um, whatever we do, if they come on trips at some point or not, being pregnant on that trip seems like it would be miserable because we sleep in our car.

Melissa: And that's pretty small. So um, because of bears, I don't want to sleep in it. [00:34:00] I've learned a lot about bears. So, sleeping in a car with a big old pregnant belly seems One

Jam: Yeah.

Melissa: of our friends is very pregnant right now, so imagining her climbing in the back of the car is pretty funny.

Melissa: Yeah. That's what, those are my fun

Jam: Nice.

Melissa: Been going camping and eating good eggs.

Jam: Mm. Good eggs.

Melissa: Good eggs. You're a good

Jam: Well, very cool

Melissa: And so are our listeners.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And thanks

Melissa: for listening

Jam: chapter to it, even though, as we said before, it is sort of sad to learn about, but it's good to learn about. So thank you. Thank you for doing the research.

Melissa: and to Brian for sending

Melissa: it.

Jam: And yeah, thank you Brian And if and for you if you have a thought or question or idea a follow up question a correction something like that you wanna send to us please do you can do that on our [00:35:00] website at chem for your life.com. that's chem For your life.com to share your thoughts and ideas that To help us keep our show going and contribute to cover the cost of making it like John t did.

Jam: You can join our super cool chem unity of Patreons on patreon.com/chem for your life. It's patreon.com/chem for your life. To join our super cool community of patrons and get some perks, get to hang out with us, get to know us a little bit better. Uh, if you're not able to do that, you can still help us by subscribing at our favorite podcast app rating, writing or reviewing an Apple Podcast, and also subscribing on our YouTube channel.

Jam: Those things help us to share chemistry with even more people.

Melissa: This episode of Chemistry Free Life was created by Melissa Kalini and J. M. Robinson. J. M. Robinson is our producer and this episode was made possible by our chemunity over on Patreon and it really means so much to us that you all make chemistry accessible to even more people and I want to shout out especially John T.

Melissa: Welcome to the list, John. As well as Avishai [00:36:00] B, Bri M, Brian K, Carol R, Chris and Claire S, Chelsea B, Derek L, Elizabeth P, Emerson W, Hunter R, Jacob T, Christina G, Katrina H, Latila S, Malin S, Melissa P, Nicole C, Rachel R, Sarah M, Stephen B, Shadow, Suzanne P, Timothy P, Venus R, Radioactive Dreams, and Colin. So thank you all again from everything you do to make Chemistry for Life happen. And I also want to shout out Bree, who often makes illustrations to go along with episodes of Chemistry for Life. You can see those on our YouTube channel. And you can support Bree on Twitter and on her website, which you can find in our show notes.

Jam: And if you'd like to learn more about today's episode, you can check the references for this episode in our show notes or in the description of the video on

Melissa: Yay chemistry!

Jam: The chemistry.

Melissa: Boopie [00:37:00] fass.